Those of you who have been hanging around this blog for a while -- or who have been following New-Wage scams via other forums -- are probably pretty familiar with Jerry and Esther Hicks, whom I've called the George and Gracie of the New-Wage world. (The main difference between the Hicks and Burns & Allen is that the latter were intentionally funny.)Esther and Jerry -- whom Joe "Mr. Fire" Vitale has credited with inspiring him in his own "spiritual marketing" shtick (he says he even wrote the intro to the original edition of their first Sara book) -- have had a smashingly successful imaginary-friends scam going since the late 1980s. As many of you may also recall, they were big stars of the original version of The Secret. Then when The Secret got too big for its bitches...I mean, britches...Rhonda Byrne got greedy and had her lawyers try to manipulate the Hicks into signing away more rights than they were comfortable with signing away. They refused, so she cut them out of the moviemercial entirely and released a new version sans Abe-Hicks. I blogged about this back in December 2006. And on his old blog, Mr. Fire himself wrote that despite the elimination of his dear friends, the new version of The Secret was even better than the original.
At any rate, being ousted from The Secret was no skin off the Hicks' backs. Their initial public proclamations about the incident were the typically "loving" -- that is, euphemistic but secretly seething -- New-Agey pap you might expect, but as time went by they got a bit snippy about it. They even released a revenge DVD. (I may have doctored that cover a little, but not much.) I don't blame them for being p.o.'d at Rhonda, but in the larger scheme of things I also don't think it's as outrageous for scammers to get scammed as it is for regular people to get scammed.
In any case the Hicks continued to rake it in with Gracie's... I mean Esther's... hammy Abe performances. They churned out books and frauducts, they presented workshops, they hosted lavish cruises for their faithful following of seagullibles. And the money just kept streaming in, often surprising even them, according to some of their own comments over the years. Of course I would always read between the lines: "Jeez, we can't BELIEVE we're getting away with this crap." "Jeez, we can't believe we're STILL getting away with this crap." And so on.
But all good scams must come to an end...or must they? Some people are predicting the end of the Abraham-Hicks empire in light of the fact that Jerry Hicks, who first pushed Esther into channeling -- um, I mean "receiving" -- has been undergoing chemotherapy to correct an "exaggerated" white blood cell count. I was first alerted to this by my friend Kyra, who runs a couple of Abe-skeptic sites. She pointed me to her blog post about the matter: http://kyrasdiary.blogspot.com/2011/05/jerry-hicks-undergoing-chemotherapy.html
The problem -- and the point that threatens to shake the Abe-Hicks community to its core (or not) -- is that "Abraham" has consistently advised against resorting to doctors and conventional medical treatment. While some of the "teachings" of Abe seem to take a neutral stance towards medicine, the overall message is that the body knows how to heal itself, and that the Abe teachings can help you prevent or cure any ailment by getting your vibes in tune with health, abundance and joy -- all without medical intervention, thank you very much. To many Abe followers, this apparently translates into a mandate to stay away from doctors and medicine altogether.
Kyra shares a revealing quotation at the beginning of her blog post:
"In reality, we have never encouraged Jerry or Esther to take any sort of medication or medical treatment because we know it is easier to teach them with what they know how to find their vibrational harmony with energy." - Abraham Hicks 03/02/1997 San Francisco, CAIt isn't Schadenfreude that motivates Kyra to write about this matter, and while you may find it hard to believe, that's not my chief motivator in this case either. Let me make it clear: I don't wish illness on anyone, not even a professional scammer like Jerry Hicks.
I do think it's a bit premature to talk about the end of a good scam like Abe-Hicks. On a recent Squidoo conversation Kyra wrote, "I think Jerry and Esther will run out of steam before their gimmick does." And I think she's right. For now, Jerry and Esther seem to be doing what they can to keep the scam alive by framing the entire chemo incident in a casual, lah-de-dah tale of a possible spider bite that may have occurred while the Hicks were camping next to a yacht marina in Florida. (Yep, those foreign yacht spiders will get ya every time. Yet another argument in favor of arachnophobia.)
In a recent update Jerry Hicks wrote -- or, more likely, had someone write for him:
On March 12, 2011 we flew from Del Mar to Boca Raton, Fl where we slept next to the dock with many yachts from many different parts of the world in the slip right outside our window. When I awakened the next morning I had a large welt on the inside of my wrist that looked like a giant fire ant bite. The most unusual thing about it was instead of the usual circular puss-like head that comes up from many insect bites it was a strangely cube-like head. It looked more like a spider bite. I put a Band-Aid on it and we continued the Panamanian cruise. It seemed to resolve into itself as time went along forming a pea-shaped nodule on my wrist. On April 18, I showed it to a dermatologist in Del Mar and she immediately decided to scrape it off and sent it in for a biopsy. We continued our seminar tour and returned to San Antonio getting ready for our spring East Coast run when we heard back from the biopsy results that there was something amiss relative to my white blood cell count and she put us in touch with a dermatologist in San Antonio who was an old school friend of hers. The subsequent blood test in San Antonio showed that my white blood cell count was extremely exaggerated and the physician insisted that I undergo immediate treatment with no delay. He pointed out a number of options, one of them was to use the “big guns” (heavy chemotherapy) and so we decided to go along with that and checked into the hospital on May 6th.
We were swept up in such an obvious current of amazing “path of least resistance” events unlike anything we’ve ever experienced before. The strong feeling that we were proceeding in exactly the right direction continued as my response to these “big guns” was a week of no discomfort and none of the highly forewarned side effects. Everyone around us at the hospital kept speaking their surprise at my unusually comfortable experience. We are now in day 18 of a 28 day regimen of bringing my blood counts back into perfect balance...There's a good discussion about this matter on this Squidoo forum hosted by another Abe-Hicks critic, Dave Stone: http://www.squidoo.com/death-of-abraham-hicks-esther-and-jerry-hicks-creation
...P.S. One of the most wonderful things that I’ve experienced was the following revelation that I had while in the hospital with all of those wonderful people taking care of us: Every person with whom we seemingly have a chance encounter while here upon this planet has the potential of exerting a purely angelic influence upon us if we will but allow it.
- I am not nearly as familiar with the teachings of Abe as Kyra and Dave Stone are. But there does seem to be a disconnect between "Abe's" teachings on conventional medical treatment and Jerry's decision to pursue same -- and many might see this as hypocritical. Even so, true believers will always find a way to rationalize. F'rinstance, there's this comment, from Dave Stone's Squidoo page linked to above:
- Crumb Bukowski May 27, 2011 @ 6:22 pm
- Jerry said in his blog that the chemo trip was a path of least resistance for him. This only implies if he didn't treat the condition with medicine he would've perhaps worried that he couldn't recover his well-being by just aligning his energy. The dude is 80 or older and must've figured he would take the chemo AND do his best to stay in the vortex in order to recover his well-being ASAP. Just because Abraham would not recommend medical treatment doesn't mean either Jerry or Esther or anyone else need follow their recommendation. I admit I was taken aback when Jerry didn't say "Screw the chemo, I'm just gonna chill out from the workshop schedule and do some fishing and trust that the white cell count will return to normal in proportion to how easygoing I make things inside my head." But he sort of emphasizes that the decision was a path of least resistance and that is quite respectable. Who is anyone to criticize or sneer at someone basing a decision on the path of least resistance? Esther and Jerry only ever claim to do their best to benefit from the teachings; they have never claimed to be the ultimate ultra-shining examples of said teachings. Cheers.
Uh, yes, they did. They have access to Abraham, if such an entity exists 24 X 7, and they quote them every step of their lives. Esther has been quoted, posing as Abraham, as saying that the prognosis could be changed in a single afternoon session with Abraham. I can give you the quote, if you insist, but maybe you should wonder why they just didn't do that.But people who want to believe will continue to believe. As Kyra wrote on Dave's forum:
More importantly, you might ask yourself why Jerry doesn't just come clean, instead of dancing evasively all around the point. He has a teaching opportunity here, a chance to genuinely help others. Instead, he's staying on the money track. And, oh, by the way, if you are not one of the A-H emissaries they occasionally float my way in disguise, you are a sucker, ready to concoct rationales to excuse them of questionable conduct.
...I don't think that in the end this will matter to Abers... Seth supporters managed to excuse Jane Robert's slow, painful death and Christian Scientists found ways of diffusing Mary Baker Eddy's morphine addiction. I'm sure that the same thing will happen here. I do have to say, though, I'm relieved because I think this will encourage people who listen to Abraham's teachings to seek traditional medicine when something goes wrong (rather than intending to rely on Abraham processes). At the least, they won't beat up on themselves so much when they get sick. They'll say, if it can happen to Jerry, it can happen to anyone. And that's good to know because one of my biggest worries about the teaching was with people who were trying to use Abraham processes because they didn't want to go the path of traditional medicine.One point seems clear, whether you believe in LOA and Abe or not: Jerry and Esther's long-running imaginary-buddies scam has earned them millions of dollars -- more than enough money, I'd imagine, to buy the very best in medical treatment and after-care. Thanks to thousands upon thousands of gullible souls, Jerry Hicks, former Amway exec and current pimp for Esther's folly, is able to afford to take that "path of least resistance" and employ all of the "big guns" he needs to help him maintain or regain his health, and perhaps even buy him a few more good scamming years.
The same probably cannot be said of many, if not most, of his followers, and, for that matter, millions of other people who can't even afford basic medical care. So in that sense, I guess LOA and imaginary pals work very well indeed for some folks, not so well for others.
Something about that just doesn't seem right.
- Related post: http://cosmicconnie.blogspot.com/2007/07/you-really-gotta-want-it-but-you-better.html
- And here's a song -- still without a tune -- for all of you who wish you, too, could find a scam that really works: http://cosmicconnie.blogspot.com/2009/05/all-thats-missing-is-music.html
PS ~ For those who want to wear their Abe-Hicks skepticism, there's this T-shirt. Click on the pic for a slight enlargement, and here's the link to order.(Note: I am not an affiliate -- just a sympathizer.)
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to help keep this Whirled spinning.
Click here to donate via PayPal or debit/credit card.
If that link doesn't work, send PayPal payment directly to
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If PayPal, be sure to specify that your contribution is a gift. Thank you!
to help keep this Whirled spinning.
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I used to be into some of that stuff so I'm still on the Abraham-Hicks mailing list. I haven't unsubscribed because they have some comedic value for me. Although ultimately I think it's almost as bad as faith healing and Christian Scientists who avoid medical treatment because they believe the power of prayer alone will heal them.
ReplyDeleteI'm in the process of trying to get rid of the Abe-Hicks DVDs I have (yes I actually bought their DVDs, don't laugh!) and a couple of days ago I finally sold my used copy of "The Secret Behind The Secret" video. I was watching one of them where they take audience questions and there was one with a man who was being told by Esther/Abraham that he can get rid of his facial paralysis through "vibrational alignment" and that if he stopped focusing on the symptoms and would think postive thoughts he could get rid of his paralysis COMPLETELY.
I don't know what high white blood cell count condition requires chemotherapy (usually it's just antibiotics, isn't it?). Like you I don't wish Jerry ill health and hopes he has a speedy recovery. But the pressure they put on believers to cure things with the power of their thoughts and happy feelings alone is unbelievably cruel in my opinion.
I do remember them saying that if you ignored a diagnosis of cancer and took all your attention away from it that it would just vanish.
I went from believing in the possibility that this stuff could really work to thinking maybe Jerry and Esther were well-intentioned and honestly believe in it but were deluding themselves, to now seeing that it's pretty much obvious they don't believe in ANY of it themselves.
And I just found this advice Esther gave to a woman with cancer:
Q: For 6 years I have been battling cancer. I want to know what to do to get rid of it.
A: We noticed you have been holding on to your stomach. The premise you are approaching this from is a little screwy, and it is not different from how you have been approaching life in general…”battling. “
It is what we were talking about earlier, “outside forces.” We would understand how it would look like something is attacking you and you are waging a battle against it. We promise we are not going to upset your applecart. We promise your emotional discomfort will subside, and you will feel more hopeful and move into knowing.
When you perceive something as coming after you, and you stand in resistance to it, can you feel the tension of your resistance? You can’t give your attention to it without it becoming an active vibrational component of you. What we want you to begin thinking about doing, is I am only going to talk more about what you do want and less about what you don’t want.
We understand how you have a condition and you want to talk about the condition that is labeled as “cancer”. All it is is an indication of vibration. It isn’t a death sentence. It is just an indication of thoughts that you have been thinking. All it is is an indicator of vibration. That’s the cure that medicine has been looking for.
"There is only one cure from your emotional imbalance,. Only thoughts. ----- not surgery, not a pill."
Only thoughts, Jerry.
Holy crap nothing gets past you. I'm not worthy I'm not worthy you are the BBB of new wagers lol
ReplyDelete~Anon
Omg, I'm blushing, Cosmic Connie. Excellent, hilarious post, and of course, I have to thank you for the incredibly undeserved mentions.
ReplyDeleteAs someone who was watching this unfold, it was very odd. A while ago, Jerry and Esther canceled three workshops (which they never have done, as far as I am aware), and they posted a letter on the website saying it was for personal reasons that involved “a spider bite.” They then canceled three more workshops the next week with a very similar letter. Then, either a day or two days later, the letter allegedly from Jerry was emailed to Abe-adorers (and me and Dave) about the chemo, saying that he’d already had 18 days of the treatment, which made it very clear that they had kept the chemo a secret for as long as possible and been rather misleading about the so-called “spider bite” (by the second letter at least, they must have known it was not a spider bite).
The letter was also suspicious because it clearly left out what illness was discovered. There’s a lot of speculation around it. The letter says it involved an elevated white blood cell count. That and the spider bite suggest, to me, MRSA (which people commonly receive chemo treatments for). I’m not saying that’s what it is, but I am saying that I think that the letter is crafted so that the person reading it will think that’s what it is.
Also, I had high expectations for the Saturday workshop that Esther did solo (Stamford, CT, 05/28/2011). I haven’t heard it yet, but those who have seem to agree that they were surprised that Abraham did not mention Jerry’s illness. I personally thought Esther and Jerry would have a wonderful cover and that it would put all Abers’ minds to rest. Alas, it doesn’t look like they took advantage of that opportunity.
I also wanted to share the quote Dave is referring to in his comment: “Esther has been quoted, posing as Abraham, as saying that the prognosis could be changed in a single afternoon session with Abraham.” Here it is: “We could take an example of the person who is noted by medical doctors to be the sickest of the sick, and if we could hold them in suspended attention for an afternoon, their diagnosis would change." – Esther Hicks (as Abraham) 2003/05/17 Boston, MA
We both agreed that we couldn’t understand why Abe couldn’t spend an afternoon with Jerry to change his diagnosis.
Btw, love the pic.
Thank you for your insights, theoreticalgrrrl. I'm not laughing at you for having bought the DVDs. At one time I might have bought into the Abe stuff too; I just happened to be past that stage in my life by the time I heard of them. And I think you're spot-on when you describe the pressure put on believers as 'unbelievably cruel.'
ReplyDeleteIt does seem that Jerry isn't walking the talk these days, doesn't it?
Anon May 28 wrote: "Holy crap nothing gets past you. I'm not worthy I'm not worthy you are the BBB of new wagers lol"
ReplyDeleteThanks, Anon, but I can't really take credit for this. My pal Kyra is the one who alerted me to the matter, and she and Dave Stone had already written quite a bit about it before I did. But I felt it was worthwhile to spread the news, as it were. :-)
Kyra: Thanks for your comment. I appreciate the support and your additional insights. It sounds to me as if Jerry and Esther are in the fight of their lives -- not so much for Jerry's life but for the life of their scam. But as you pointed out elsewhere, this is SOP for scammers: When The Fearless Leader becomes ill, or something else happens that might compromise the beautiful lies being sold, one does what one must to obscure the truth about what's really going on.
ReplyDeleteAnd thank you (and Dave) for publicizing that Boston MA quotation from Abe/Esther; it really fleshes out the hypocrisy.
By the way, here are some interesting takes on physical illness from another LOA guru and pal of Jerry and Esther, Mr. Fire. These are from a few years ago:
http://blog.mrfire.com/did-i-attract-emergency-surgery/
http://mrfire.blogspot.com/2007/05/getting-something-off-my-chest.html
It could be an age-related onset of leukemia, given the chemo treatment and Jerry's advanced age(very common in advanced old-age and not really treatable in a can-be-cured sense).
ReplyDeleteStill, I suppose if you are determined to look on the bright side, at least it will give Esther the option of channeling Jerry as well as Abraham after he departs this earth for the Valhalla of great scamola artists where he will undoubtedly sit at the right hand of Doris Stokes.
I am embarrassed to admit, but a friend pointed out to me that I have mistakenly used "traditional medicine" (which refers to things like acupuncture) in the place of "conventional medicine" (western medicine). Just wanted to say that I am advocating the use of conventional medicine--not traditional medicine. I'm going to go in a corner and properly scorn myself for this shameful error.
ReplyDeleteDis, leukemia is the first thing I thought of when I read Jerry had an elevated white blood cell count.
ReplyDeleteKyra, don't be embarrassed about using the term "traditional medicine" to mean conventional Western (allopathic) medicine. I often use that very term as well, without considering how Western-centric it sounds. I guess I should join you in that corner. :-)
ReplyDeleteI think of acupuncture as being part of TCM -- traditional Chinese medicine. But when you get right down to it, "traditional" is relative to the culture and the time. For that matter, I guess the term "conventional medicine" is relative too. In any case I think your meanings have been quite clear.
I am simply posting this around because all of you too focused on Jerry (poor guy) are missing THE SECOND COMING. Get real folks...Jesus is back. Hurry now to The Abe Forum for details...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.abeforum.com/showthread.php?23477-The-same-TEACHINGS-!
(directly quoting from the Abe Forum)
The Teachings of Abraham and the Teachings of Jesus are identical! The words have changed but the message is the same. Those who listened to Jesus back then had to feel what we feel as we listen to Abraham now. That feeling of pure truth as the words resonate to your core. So the next time you're listening to Abraham, appreciate what you've been given. A glimpse of something magnificent! Not many get a front row seat to the gospel truth'. Amen! Imagine Jesus on YouTube?! now you can!
~
For inquiring minds the thread continues with pictures of Jesus (walking on water even)and more thumbs up spanning three pages on the thread. Faithful followers have now elevated Abraham to Jesus status so we have the reemergence of the new messiah in Ester. The Abe Forum, run by David Gordon, carefully monitors post. Something as simple as Happy Halloween is considered off topic. Knowing how tightly the forum is controlled, how quickly threads are locked, that this thread is allowed to continue would reflect that the forum owner has no problem with followers claiming Abraham/Ester is the second coming.
Just a fyi~
How about just calling it medicine? The term "allopathic" is a pejorative invented by homeopaths, and of course "western" was invented by westerners trying to cash in on the term "Chinese"!
ReplyDelete...Anyway, great work as always Connie. I often wonder just what kind of a body count people like the the Hicks (or anyone who gives anti-medical advice) are responsible for.
(Also great work by Kyra. I don't know how I didn't notice her blog until now.)
Got some good chuckles reading the comments!
ReplyDeleteRe "western" medicine, I'm skeptical of it too. It's a bu$ine$$ and like other businesses it markets & misrepresents itself. There's a massive amount of blind faith in it. It is full of holes and false promises. Buyer beware.
Great comments all,
Barbara
Oh, good Goddess, Clarity. Now you've gone and done it. I had just enjoyed a little morning snack when I decided to follow the link you provided to the "Abe is like Jesus" thread on the Abe forum (and it seems to be up to four pages now, and growing). Now I feel like puking -- not just from the gushing and credulous comments but from all of the eye-popping extraneous "art work" in the comments. For a moment I thought I'd stepped into one of the old Clay Aiken fan forums.
ReplyDeleteGiven the general tone of that thread, I'd say there are lots of true believers who are just gonna ignore the whole Jerry/chemo thing and find new rationales for clinging passionately to their religion. Actually they sound a little desperate, as if they're trying too hard to ignore the mundane realities that would seem to invalidate their beliefs. But maybe that's just me, projecting my own biases. :-)
The good news is that with great self-control I managed to avoid losing my morning snack, though I now have yet another headache from rolling my eyes. But thank you anyway for providing this link; it's very revealing. We'll see how long it remains publicly available now that it's been outed on this Whirled.
You make good points about the various labels for medicine, Yakaru. And you are absolutely right about the origins of the term “allopathic.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allopathic_medicine
ReplyDeleteHowever, I still think that for clarity of communication in conversations such as this one, we sometimes need to distinguish between a protocol that includes acupuncture or various sorts of "energy work," and one that includes surgery and/or government-approved-and-regulated pharmaceuticals. (And I realize things get a bit cloudy when we consider that some M.D.s send their patients to acupuncturists or other “alternative” practitioners.)
Of course the history of medicine and healing is much more complex than is normally acknowledged in most discussions of this nature. For example, it could easily be argued (and often has been, mostly by “alt-med” activists) that what most of us in the "developed" world consider to be conventional medicine rose to the top of the heap not merely because of its merits. The other big factors were various political machinations, over the centuries, by people with money and influence. (In this regard medicine is no different from any other institution/industry: history – and protocol – are written by the winners.)
A Wikipedia timeline, beginning with the 1500s…
http://tinyurl.com/3ntdoku
Also, in an ongoing SHAMblog series, Steve Salerno discusses the rise of the pharmaceutical industry and the development of medicine in the past century. It is, as he says, a tale of the hubris of the medical establishment. So far there are nine installments; here, for the benefit of those who haven’t read any of the series yet, is the link to Part 1: http://shambook.blogspot.com/2011/03/placebo-how-sugar-pill-became-poison.html
Naturally, many alt-med advocates use the many blunders of “conventional” or “establishment” medicine to advance their own products and methods. But I seriously doubt that Steve Salerno is trying to make a case for alt-med, and I’m not either.
And Yak, I'm glad you discovered Kyra's blog. She's doing good work and has a much more in-depth knowledge of Abe teachings and culture than I do.
Barb wrote of "western" medicine: "It's a bu$ine$$ and like other businesses it markets & misrepresents itself...Buyer beware."
ReplyDeleteOverall I agree with you, but one point about "western" medicine in our society is that at least there is a system of accountability (flawed as it may be with its over-dependence on self-policing and palm-greasing) that doesn't yet seem to exist with alt-med.
Moreover, to indict "the system" is not to indict many of its individual practitioners: the hard-working, under-appreciated M.D.s (not all doctors are rich and arrogant SOBs), as well as the P.A.s and nurses and researchers who really do care about relieving human misery. They may be working within a broken system, but they cannot be discounted.
Cosmic Connie don't you worry hon...I've made copies of each page complete with pictures, emoticons, all the beauty and splendor announcing the second coming. An event as important as this should be recorded for history. Available soon full glossy reprints for a nominal fee or sign up for my monthly subscription program (CD or on demand download). Prices subject to change at my discretion. Well, it's expensive to build a new house and furnish it with top of the line Asian furniture.
ReplyDeleteI feel I should edit my previous post however as it may be in error...
so we have the reemergence of the new messiah in Ester
Because ya know...it might be more accurate to say 'mother of' new messiah.
I'll stand in the corner with you and Kyra~
Clarity I thought you were joking! Dear God. From the forum:
ReplyDelete"I've thought for a long time that "to turn the other cheek" doesn't mean to forgive. It means to pivot!"
Totally! Cause Jesus wouldn't be a bummer and actually want us to be forgiving! And all that stuff Jesus said like sell all your belongings and give them to the poor and it is easier for a camel to pass through an eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven and you must feed and clothe and give shelter to the poor because whatever you do to the least of my bretheren you do to me, well...um...Jesus was just out of the vortex that day.
Oh no, *this* is why:
"It sounds as though there is a clause where we must ask forgiveness for sins??..... I see a lot of similarity in the teachings of Jesus and Abe, but since Jesus didn't handwrite the Bible himself, I feel the men who had a hand in constructing the Bible have put forth a lot of their "hangups" within the pages. There are elements of truth in the book and lots of items that appear to come from men who were promoting fear."
So whatever we can fit into the Abraham philosophy of selfish narcissism we'll claim is backed by the Authority of Jesus, everything else that contradicst it is from flawed humans promoting fear.
See how that works?
I have to call my priest and all my old Sunday School teachers and let them know they got it all wrong.
FYI..some one mentioned that chemo is used for MRSA. It stands for methicillin resistant staff aureus which, in layman's terms, is a staph infection. It simply means that Methicillin will not help alleviate this infection. Chemo is not used for staff infection. In fact, chemo would just bombard the immune system and exacerbate normal staff that we all have on our skin, etc. While I am not a follower of Abraham's teaching, I do find it odd that his followers are ready to toss his teachings under the bus. This is what happened with Jesus (not a follower here either)once he went from raising the dead to being unable to come down off the cross. My point is, maybe we need to ook at ourselves and our responses when things "appear" to be false or misleading. Perhaps there is an underlying message...don't be too quick to call people frauds.
ReplyDeleteDr. S
Clarity, I'm glad you're preserving the immortal words and artwork of the Abers for posterior...I mean, posterity. And hey, who says Esther can't be a Messiah?
ReplyDeleteLOL, theoreticalgrrrl. Abers certainly are not the only New-Wagers to claim that their beliefs are in sync with the teachings of Jesus H. Christ. In fact, Jesus and The Buddha are both very popular. For instance, see discussions on Joe "Mr. Fire" Vitale's recent "Eye of the Needle" blog post...
ReplyDeleteDr. S., I'm no authority on staph infections and their treatment but I am aware of MRSA and similar horrors that are increasingly common these days.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Abers throwing the teachings under the bus because of Jerry's chemo, that doesn't seem to be happening. Abers seem to be defending the faith by steadfastly ignoring the chemo (either that, or they're not allowed to discuss it on the official forums).
I've thought Abe-Hicks were frauds since I first heard of them, and have consistently expressed this opinion on this blog. Other participants in this discussion have been believers at one time but had apparently become increasingly skeptical long before the chemo incident.
I wandered over to the Abe forum to read that myself and wow. I think I am going to have to take a shower after reading that but being the glutton for punishment that I am, I had to venture deeper into the realm of that forum and found one thread about finding your soulmate.
ReplyDeleteNow here is where I not only decline the shower but also decided to tar and feather myself with empty platitudes and moving vortexes. After reading that thread I stood back in awe of the ability of some people to bring reason to bear anything. To hold onto a belief no matter what reality throws in your face.
How can anyone blame someone for being out of the "vortex" as the reason they haven't found love. Not only that but in reading that thread this vortex isn't fixed, it apparently moves and you must not only keep up with it but anticipate where it will be so that you can gain it's blessings. If I didn't know any better, these beliefs come from some ancient culture that sacrifices the virgins of the tribe to gain good favor with the unseen god. I don't really see any difference in the reasoning or beliefs. Just in this case you must sacrifice your common sense so that the vortex can claim mastery over you. Therefore you can never have, be, yearn for, be independent of, simply exist or be o.k with yourself without it's approval.
Now the shower won't suffice, I need to sandblast myself to regain my senses.
People like Jerry and Esther are no better than any other cult or religious 'ism. Their tactics are at least unethical and border on criminal and evil. Every one of them promote the idea that they alone have all the answers...for a hefty fee of course they will divulge the parroted, regurgitated crap. There are so many vulnerable people who are desperate, confused, earnestly looking for answers and unfortunately easy prey. It is frightening the amount of control people like the Hicks have over their followers. Have you heard of Steve and Barbara Rother of Lightworkers.org, Las Vegas Nevada? Same garbage, package themselves in love and light mumbo jumbo... nothing but glorified pickpockets!
ReplyDeletehttp://lightworker.com/beacons
/2011/2011_05-GrowingGod.php
I consider myself to be a spiritual NOT religious person but these people don't resemble spirituality in any sense of the word and the scary thing is they are considered by new age standards to be the 'spiritually elite' of our society today!
"one point about "western" medicine in our society is that at least there is a system of accountability (flawed as it may be with its over-dependence on self-policing and palm-greasing) that doesn't yet seem to exist with alt-med"
ReplyDeleteAt least in the regulatory process that governs acupuncture & herbal medicine in China, a practitioner who harms a patient through incompetence, carelessness, or malfeasance suffers consequences far more severe than does a western physician in the same circumstances.
As you know, I'm not one to dismiss the value of western medicine, and certainly don't claim that "alt med" is superior. However, I do acknowledge the fact that some non-conventional treatments have proven themselves to be effective, via both anecdotal evidence and strictly controlled studies. And we might also keep in mind that pharmaceutical science was founded in - and continues to rely upon - herbal remedies.
While it would be absurd to blindly accept every unproven treatment, it is equally absurd to blindly reject every treatment regimen because it has not yet completed the evaluation/vetting process. Both approaches are equally inconsistent with the fundamentals of objective analysis.
I, too, followed the link to the Abe forum to find that the teachings of Jesus and Abe are identical, to the detriment of my morning toast. The person calling herself "Treasure" who, based on a feeling, decided that turning the other cheek means to pivot, might want to check out the theologian Walter Wink: http://www.csec.org/csec/sermon/wink_3707.htm.
ReplyDeleteOr, she might want my notes from the class session in my "Ethics of Reconciliation" class where we talked about this passage and its implications for nonviolent direct action strategies in peace and justice work. There is a reason that the gospel of Matthew specifies that if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also. This was a backhanded strike used to indicate social superiority, for instance a "master" striking his slave, a husband his wife, or a Roman striking a Jew. By advising to turn the other cheek, Jesus is in effect saying to the one who strikes backhandedly -- I am not inferior and I am not submissive -- if you're going to strike me, you will strike me as an equal. In that sense, Jesus does "pivot" the power dynamics in that act.
But that's neither here nor there, which is what bothers me so much in the appropriation of Buddha, Jesus, and other figures by anyone who just whimsically feels like doing so: "I'm LOA -- you must be (or must have been) LOA too!" This is what made me sputter and pace last August when I read The Power. I couldn't believe that Byrne had cited Bonhoeffer in her book -- why? I'm taking a course next fall in Bonhoeffer's moral thinking -- an entire course. I simply don't understand the lack of integrity in grabbing one quotation from someone who would have been so *not* LOA it's not even funny -- a man who worked tirelessly to encourage resistance of the Nazis and eventually was hanged for conspiring against Hitler -- and how does that compare to Byrne ordering the universe to send her a cute little skirt she saw in Paris and refusing to watch the news because she might see something bad and become infected? It just doesn't seem to matter to followers of these "teachers." Asking for some integrity in such matters is all too often considered to be an act of negativity.
T beast, I hope you've sufficiently recovered from the self-sandblasting. :-) It seems to me that one major achievement of the Abe-scam is the perpetuation of New-Wage guilt.
ReplyDelete(I wonder if all of the Abe blather about vortexes is the true cause of the hundreds of tornadoes the US has been experiencing? Must be something to this LOA stuff after all!)
Cindy, as it happens, I hadn't heard of Steve and Barbara Rother, but thanks for the heads-up. I went to their site, Lightworker.org, and it's one of those messy, cluttered 1990s-style sites that reminded me a lot of another scamming couple who call themselves RA-Ja and Moi-RA Dove. (Okay, my old Cosmic Relief web site (ca. 1997) is nearly as bad, design-wise, but I'm not actively marketing and selling from it. And I can always say that I'm just parodying the crappy old woo sites. Yeah, that's the ticket.)
ReplyDeleteLike the Doves and several others I've written about, the Rothers seem kind of third- or fourth-tier: wannabes, in other words. Are they really raking in money on the scale of Abe-Hicks? I guess it doesn't matter; fraud is fraud, whether on a large or small scale.
Maybe it's time for me to do another MystiCouples Awards post, along the lines of this one from a little over four years ago:
http://cosmicconnie.blogspot.com/2007/04/couples-therapy.html
Ron, you made some good points all around.
ReplyDeleteI didn't mean to imply that there's no accountability with TCM, especially on its home turf, as it were. But in the US, anyway, various sorts of "alternative" healers aren't as accountable to governing bodies as those in conventional medicine. I've never argued in favor of more rules and regulations, and I'm not doing so now, but I did want to point out that establishment medicine plays by one set of rules and alt-med by another. In the end, though, it all comes back down to "buyer beware."
Also, I'm certainly not saying or implying that time-tested methods such as acupuncture have no merit. (I remember the sh-t storms you and I have both been through -- here and on various skeptical forums -- regarding this topic. :-)) At least for the relief of symptoms such as many types of pain, acupuncture seems to be more effective and certainly safer than surgery and pharmaceuticals.
The main point -- and the whole reason for bringing up medicine (in all of its forms) on this forum -- is that Jerry Hicks' use of chemotherapy seems to be at odds with what he and Esther, through their imaginary collective Abraham, have long taught about healing. In any case, as I noted in my post, the Abrascam has afforded the Hicks the luxury of picking and choosing from the vast array of healing methods available. Few others on the planet have that luxury. New-Wage gurus and their lapdogs can call me a whiner/loser, but that just seems unfair.
Kathryn, I was hoping you'd join in. I figured that you -- particularly as a theology student -- would find the Abe thread eminently gagworthy. Thank you for the elucidation of the "turn the other cheek" passage.
ReplyDeleteYour juxtaposition of Rhonda's little skirt story and her co-opting of Bonhoeffer (and other truly great thinkers and activists) pretty much sums up The Secret franchise's moral sensibilities. Apparently, though, what many people of conscience see as amorality is simply the LOA version of looking on the bright side of life.
Which leads me, inevitably, to this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ECUtkv2qV8
(Sorry to be so predictable.)
And regarding demands for integrity from the LOA "teachers": Hey, I'll take that brand of "negativity" over callous positivity and willful ignorance any day.
Too bad they don't watch the news to see how a real life vortex is a very destructive and dangerous thing, you don't want to be near one and especially within one. If they are willing to reach and associate how their beliefs so obviously align with those of Jesus etc., they should also be willing to associate how their vortex ironically aligns with another. But I have a strong feeling they are selective in their reasoning and don't use it across the board.
ReplyDeleteYes guilt seems to be the main stick to drive their followers to the vortex and beyond. I was amused at reading comments from some of the tenured posters who sit back and point out every little flaw that someone is committing in their search to find the elusive vortex (0f course not giving real life helpful advice, just telling them the old warm, warmer, getting hot schtick). It's a game they control and you can only win when they say you can. Of course the reward for playing this emotional life game is not palpable, it's just indicated by the amount of laughing or loving heart emoticons they feel is appropriate to really, really, really drive the point home that they are happy.
One fascinating concept I find with those that are LOA'ers is how they fight so hard to be "good enough" to attract the most basic of things. They get lost in the singular focus of trying to improve in whatever way so they can finally have love, friendship, etc. Yet they can't look outside of themselves and see that other people who aren't as "enlightened" as they are, getting all of those things without believing or even caring about the Law of Attraction. It's a reality they have to see everyday. So I wonder how they rationalize that contradiction and continue to make life so difficult for themselves by putting the things they want so out of reach. Or even worse, creating a gauntlet for themselves to traverse that is so demanding, just so they can be in an illusory place that may or may not give them what they want.
You nailed the whole LOA/Abe MO, Tbeast.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the mainstream news: Of course the LOA-ers, whether followers of Abe-Hicks, Joe Vitale, or any number of other New-Wage gurus, are frequently admonished NOT to watch the news. It's all so negative. Most of us Muggles might point out that watching the news could help alert people to things such as tornado watches or warnings, which at least in some cases would buy them some time to save themselves. But again, that's WAY too negative.
This isn't from the Abe forum but it does seem quite relevant to the LOA party line. It's from Mr. Fire's recent blog post about enlightenment:
[Alfonso May 27, 2011 at 7:45 am]
"Hello Joe. I just got my copy of The Abundance Paradigm [one of Joe's audio programs he's currently pushing] 2 weeks ago and I’ve been listening to it everyday. I also practice the whiteboard meditation, story session and the sanskrit clearing session everyday.
"My question is: I can watch anything except the news, right? Thanks."
Permalink:
http://blog.mrfire.com/how-to-get-enlightened-in-only-30-minutes-or-its-free/#comment-201991
For the benefit of those of you who haven't read that blog post post, it's one where Joe makes the appearance of being honest and humble, to wit:
"There are countless books, courses, rituals, laws, suggestions, principles, meditations, techniques and more, all created by people seeking to be enlightened (or even enlightened) and wanting to help you achieve that state, as well.
"I’m not sure you need any of them. Including my own."
But then he throws a little "tip" at the end: "Bodhidharma said, 'Only one person in a million becomes enlightened without a teacher’s help.'"
And the word "teacher" has an embedded link to Joe's Miracles Coaching boiler-room scam.
The point being that Joe, like Abe-Hicks and scads of other New-Wage emperors, is quite adept at the carrot-and-stick (or carat-and-sthick) technique.
If you think their advice to avoid the news was bad, now they want you to leave REALITY behind:
ReplyDelete"We think it's time for you to make the leap into the Vortex and leave what you have known as reality behind. And when you leave what you have known as reality behind, you'll be living real time in this Vortex. We're not asking you to croak today."
"We're asking you to turn off your televisions for 30 days. Turn off your televisions for 30 days. We can feel the pains of withdrawal all around the room. [fun] Turn off your televisions for 30 days, cancel your meetings with other people, withdraw from reality in any way you can. Now, you have to decide what you can and cannot do. Withdraw from as much of your reality as you can for 30 days and explore the recesses and the resources of your Vortex...If someone says to you, 'You seem different. What's going on with you?' Tell them, 'I'm withdrawing from reality,' [fun] and before they can muster too much alarm, say to them, 'but don't worry, I'm focusing into my vibrational reality, which really is present tense.' And as they say, 'Well, you do seem happier,' say to them,
"'Everything that I want and everything that I am is in this Vortex where I am now focusing. And I've discovered that I'm addicted to this expanded version of me and that I cannot go back. I tried to go back for quite a while. I didn't really know about the existence of this Vortex. I was clinging to reality and it was tearing me apart and so I let go of reality and I began thinking in terms of vibrational reality, and now, there's no stress in my body, now there's no pain in my body, now there's no anger in my heart, now there's no tension in my being, now there's no resistance around me and now I'm floating free in this Vortex of cooperative components where all kinds of remarkable things are presenting themselves to me in just perfect timing. It's like the entire universe has been established just to support me.'
"...I realize now that I was always off base when I had imagined myself into a new place and that i expected reality to live up to that which was always going to be that which was to come in terms of manifestation. I've been asking too much from reality and I'm no longer going to do it. Reality is never going to disappoint me again..."
Abraham-Hicks from the Boston 6/5/10 Vortex of Creation Workshop
Good Goddess, theoreticalgrrrl, I'm dizzy just thinking about all that reality-manipulation/denial. It sounds like some of the stuff they were saying in the 1960s. "Reality is for people who can't handle drugs."
ReplyDeleteAccess Consciousness has its 9 trannies (and other methods to create your own reality), and Abrascam has its Vortex.
"I gotta find me a scam..." etc.
Oh, sure, blame the poor spiders. NOBODY likes spiders. You can be as negative as you like, so long as it's *spiders* you're trashing.
ReplyDeleteSpiders are just another one of God(dess)'s special creatures put on this earth for our enjoyment and bliss-following. It's not *their* fault they got attracted into this situation by the awesome powers of the LOA. Even the dreaded Hairy Jumping Yacht Spiders (arachnea cruisesquealia) serve a valuable role in our luxury-class boating ecosystem, ensuring that only the strongest, most positive-minded mariners sail the seven seas.
As Monty Python used to sing,
All things dull and ugly, All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty, The Lord God made the lot....
(C'mon, Connie, it's not fair to put poor little harmless Red-Knees in the same picture with these two spider-libelers. I hereby submit my complaint!)
Mea culpa, O Great Mojo. Of course you're right about spiders. And 'twas laziness rather than malice that led to my decision to use a relatively harmless species in my photo-comp. I was in a hurry and decided to turn to my old CD full of photo-objects that already had transparent backgrounds. This saved valuable time that otherwise would have been spent finding a suitable image on the Web and Photoshopping its background into transparency. Less Photoshopping time gives me more snarking time, although arguably some of my best snarks have been via pictures.
ReplyDeleteAnd that Monty Python hymn you cited is one of my favorites, right up there with "Every Sperm Is Sacred."
@mojo, quoting
ReplyDeleteEven the dreaded Hairy Jumping Yacht Spiders (arachnea cruisesquealia) serve a valuable role in our luxury-class boating ecosystem, ensuring that only the strongest, most positive-minded mariners sail the seven seas.
~
roflmao in spades
thanx for the best laugh I've had today.
Just a brief sound bite on the news and/or TV. I quit the glass tit over 15 years ago. I found other things I wanted to do with my time that benefited me more. Over the years via internet I've done news and ‘not news’. For me personally I find I prefer ‘not news’ bc in my personal experience I feel better not reading all the catastrophe/chaos du jour. I’m not able to change any of the chaos but there are situations around me locally where I can help. I don't need the news to tell me where there is need bc I can see need around me. For me it's to apply myself where I do feel I can be of most benefit. If there is an important event I need to be aware of plenty of people rush to the email circuit making sure I know (gotta love those mass forwards eh?).
ReplyDeleteNot everyone who does 'no news' is trying to escape reality. Some of us are just choosing to experience reality in a different way. It's a fine line between saying everyone should be free to experience life as they choose (with the obvious not causing harm to others) and then classifying people who chose to live lives in a different manner as somehow ‘less than’. I am very well informed on subjects that interest me which is a conscious chosen preference.
Now Abe telling everyone to shut everything out…nope, don't ride that boat. I believe people should make their own decisions about what works for them…but I believe it in all aspects; there is no one true path.
And yes, I'm able to keep up on storms, tornadoes just fine. It's called the weather channel.
~
Deaf people are not in the vortex~
ReplyDeleteIf you really want to get to the nuts and bolts of how insincere the Hicks are try this one on for size. To date there is no accommodation for Abers that are deaf. Am I being politically incorrect? Should I say hearing impaired? Even though there are many Abers that are hearing impaired there is still no accommodation for them, no videos with subtitles. Yes, they can buy transcripts and we all know deaf people would rather read black on white text instead of a visual, visceral experience of Abe. Adding subtitles to a video is a no brainer and any production staff could do this with minimal effort involved. Abe publications has been asked about this in the past repeatedly. The response is there are no plans at this time. When confused Abers ask about this on forums the answer is the deaf have obviously not summoned strong enough yet. When they do it will be given.
Now if one person in the vortex is stronger than millions that are not the only obvious conclusion is deaf people are not in the vortex.
Jerry Hicks has said repeatedly in interviews that he had his own wealth before Abe and his mission is just to bring this to the world.
I guess that means everyone but the deaf because they are so hopelessly out of the vortex it’s not worth considering.
Cross-posting this around bc I do feel this is a rather glaring example of squeezing every last dime from the flock cutting production corners wherever possible.
Then again, nah, everyone knows deaf people are out of the vortex. If they would just get in they could hear right?
'they can buy transcripts and we all know deaf people would rather read black on white text instead of a visual, visceral experience of Abe.'
ReplyDeleteReading text in black and white does rather interfere with the required visual, visceral experience that leads to unthinking belief that one's first response to the material is da incontravertible Trooth, when it is primarily an unconscious, emotional response and therefore not subject to critical evaluation.
Perhaps Abe has taken a few marketing courses in his downtime when Esther is not bugging him for revelations and has learned the efficacy of selling the sizzle, not the steak.
As one who has had life-long problems with the concept of Christian forgiveness, I really appreciate the new interpretation of 'turn the other cheek'--it bolsters my own emotional evaluation of Jesus as a revolutionary thinker giving practical social advice for his time and situation-- resentful submission to the boot-heel of Rome,(although that metaphor doesn't really work with what we know of Roman footwear)-- rather than an airy fairy, pious god-botherer.
I'm not much of a theologian but did find Walter Wink's sermon masterful, and the link given is broken, so:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.cres.org/star/_wink.htm
Clarity (Tuesday, May 31, 2011 8:53:00 PM): There are many legitimate reasons to wean oneself from TV, and a few nonconformists have been advocating this -- and some have actually done it -- ever since the Boob Tube was first invented. Much has been written about the TV problem over the past few decades. F'rinstance, I have a '70s-era book called Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television by Jerry Mander. Then there's The Glass Teat by sci-fi author Harlan Ellison, and The Plug-in Drug by Marie Winn. And so on. Those titles represent just a drop in the bucket of TV/mass-media criticism.
ReplyDeleteYou have listed some good reasons for not being a part of TV culture, and no, it doesn't sound as if you're trying to escape reality. As you noted, however, there's a difference between making a conscious choice about how to spend your time, and jumping on the 'no-TV-news' bandwagon just because some money-hungry guru or cult leader says you should.
I agree that the constant stories of catastrophes and abuse and other things you can do nothing about -- the very stuff of the nightly news -- get old after a while. Even so, I think the mainstream news media do serve a legitimate purpose in our culture, and at least once in a while they do something right.
Moreover, the Internet has taken over much of TV's role as the creator and enforcer of mass culture, so even those who don't watch a lot of TV can still get sucked into the cultural vortex (so to speak) in ways they may not have intended.
Most significantly for the purposes of this conversation, though, I believe that when gurus say, "Don't watch the news," or when they advise other ways of dropping out of mainstream culture, their motives are suspect until proven otherwise.
Clarity and Disillusioned: Thanks for adding another dimension to the Abescam discussion. It is very interesting indeed that Abe-Hicks would not have made concessions for the hearing-impaired. Then again, I guess it's not surprising.
ReplyDeleteAnd Dis, thank you for providing the (unbroken) Wink link.
Not watching TV isn't the main issue with Abraham. Sure if more people would get off the internet or stop watching too much TV and get out and interact with the real world I think it would be healthy for everyone. But this is not the advice from Abraham/Esther. It's to avoid all oustide influences, including other people and REALITY itself.
ReplyDeleteI had to edit because it wouldn't let me post the whole monologue, so I apologize if that's the impression it gave. The key is withdrawal from reality. Here it is on the Rick Ross Forum thanks to bponeal1982:
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?3,21069,page=14
Thanks for clarifying, TG, and I appreciate the Rick Ross link. But I'm glad Clarity brought the point up anyway, because it is important to distinguish between exercising discretion (as Clarity does regarding TV viewing) and completely insulating oneself from all outside influences that aren't cult-approved.
ReplyDeleteI find it noteworthy that most of the New-Wage gurus who advise staying away from mass media (particularly TV) have no qualms about using the media to promote themselves whenever possible, and to brag about their own TV appearances. Sometimes, of course, that exposure backfires, as in the case of David Schirmer and Australia's Channel 9 (A Current Affair) a few years ago... and Joe Vitale and ABC last year.
@ Cosmic Connie
ReplyDeletere TV post
could not agree more.
Never heard of the books mentioned but they sound interesting.
Mine was just reaching a fork in the road and deliberately deciding to take a different path. Somewhere along the line picked up the term glass tit and thought it was amusing. Thanks for pointing me to origin of such.
I have to admit that I watch more TV than is probably good for me -- not all day, just a couple of hours at night. But sometimes even that's too much. I'm really getting fed up with crime shows, particularly the CSI franchise, which seems to deliberately and systematically be getting grosser and grosser all the time.
ReplyDeleteThey can't even show women's nipples on TV (at least in the US), but they *can* show simulated autopsies and bloody people-parts and all manner of grotesque crap that passes as entertainment. The only reason Ron and I still watch CSI at all is that our dog Kali likes the show (really, she sits on the couch and stares at the TV, fascinated).
I know: TMI.
@ Connie~
ReplyDeleteI so enjoy a good movie. Watched Cedar Rapids last night and laughed till we almost had tears.
The interesting thing for me when I stopped tv was riding through neighborhoods and becoming aware of the unmistakable hue that filtered through closed curtains. It was like the realization how everyone was plugged into this box bc I was seeing it in a way I had never seen before. The whole matrix of how people were plugged into a device that mass produced a kinda collective mindset. It was weird bc I had never seen it so clearly as I did that night.
I had been to friends homes that did not have tv's and since that was during the time i 'did' tv I thought my god what do they do for entertainment? Looking around I saw bookshelves filled with books, books on the tables...books everywhere. Maybe there were puzzles in the making on the dining room table. Sometimes various craft projects, sketch books, piles of paints and canvas. Everywhere I looked there were expressions of on going creativity in one form or another. Music was in abundance.
It was like coming off a drug and it did take some focused intention but it was one of the best decisions I ever made and have never looked back.
Several times after the advent of Internet to my life I've done the news thing. Times of 'new's have varied, each sojourn into such being shorter in duration. The last time I 'did the news' it lasted almost 2 months. I did endeavor to search out more credible sources, not the usual fake news that is mainstream. I noticed I had a knot in my stomach and not feeling so optimistic just about my own life and state of being. I feel much more in control of my thought processes when I take the road I've taken. I would not even remotely suggest that this is the right road for everyone. It is always about finding what works for you personally.
Regarding the TV issue: I don't have a working TV in my home and I do have a copy of Jerry Mander's Four Arguments as well as Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death. I never had cable and when everything switched to digital, I never bothered to get the router. I found the babbling that comes from the TV set annoying. I get my news from several online sources. I do think we have a civic and global responsibility to be aware of what governments are doing, and how our way of life affects others. I brought up Byrne's advice in reference to Bonhoeffer because he would not have abdicated civic and moral responsibilities because they were "negative." Too many people looked the other way when their fellow citizens were being hauled away. What bothers me is that Byrne et al. seem to consider avoiding the awareness of difficult problems in the world a spiritual act. I would say that it is the opposite. I do agree that one need not overdose on the news, however.
ReplyDeleteMy point is not to be passive. I also agree that watching TV can be passive, and I, too, notice the flickering screens in the windows when I take walks in the evening. I had a colleague from Ethiopia who wondered if this is why so many are lonely in the U.S. Here, he said, people leave work and sit individually in their homes watching TV. In his country, people might sit together over a cup of coffee or tea for hours.
We have more power than we think (oh heck, now I sound like Byrne). What I mean is that people really can make a difference when they act. So I don't advocate just watching -- I advocate getting the information and then acting.
Kathryn Price said...
ReplyDeleteI do think we have a civic and global responsibility ...... seem to consider avoiding the awareness of difficult problems in the world a spiritual act. I would say that it is the opposite.
But you see, there go assumptions. I'm fully aware of how our way of life effects others. I don't need the news to tell me the newest specifics of atrocity du jour. I leaned about it growing up. I read about it in books. It was taught in school. I saw it in the Viet Nam war. I've seen it continue on, no change. If you want to go back a few thousand years you'll find more of the same, different places, faces but same dynamics. Oppressor and oppressed, predator and prey.
By the same token if someone feels it is spiritual to avoid looking at negative things who am I am to say otherwise? Each person has their path, their reasons for doing whatever it is they do. Who am to say their reasons for not doing something are not as valid as my reasons for doing something?
In the simplest terms it can be said we take a stand against each other and in our feeling of 'rightness' we condemn another.
It can be as simple as "we have a responsibility" to we have a right to take 'fill in the blank'. It is at it's core I'm right and you are wrong.
When we learn first to define and then to tend to our own set of ethics, whatever they may be, and discover our personal integrity then we manifest the definition of the word, ...the state of being whole, entire, or undiminished.
btw...I totally support your right to pass judgment on ppl that don't watch the news *wink*
This has been purely for the sake of discussion.
~
"btw...I totally support your right to pass judgment on ppl that don't watch the news *wink*"
ReplyDeleteClarity, my initial reason for bringing up the news at all was to demonstrate how Byrne attempted to appropriate Bonhoeffer into her LOA, a person who was actively engaged in the challenges facing in his country. I would better have expressed it to say that I think it is a spiritual act to turn toward your neighbor in times of trouble, rather than away from them. When I read of Byrne warning followers not to watch the news, I read it in that light, perhaps inaccurately. Yet it reads to me much like her warning against letting ill people talk about their illnesses with you. However, Bonhoeffer did "watch the news" in that sense, probably not on TV in his day, and thus he is not a good candidate for Byrne to use in her philosophy.
While it's certainly a good thing to be aware of humankind's mistakes throughout history, I think it our responsibility to keep our individual and collective fingers on the pulse of human behavior now, as well. Not to spend our lives obsessing about every detail delivered on a daily basis, but certainly enough to recognize when a destructive trend is emerging.
ReplyDeleteI would challenge any self-proclaimed "teacher" to provide me with evidence that any of the great spiritual teachers advised followers to turn away from anything that might be construed as "negative." On the contrary, the common theme shared by the major traditions is one of compassion for the less-fortunate. You can't feel compassion for something you refuse to see, much less acknowledge, and it is impossible to transcend something from which you run away.
Buddha was able to hear the sound of the river only after he had opened his awareness to - and immersed himself in - the suffering around him.
Clarity, Kathryn, Ron, TG, et al....
ReplyDeleteI didn't mean to drop out of the conversation; I got sidetracked today. There's some really good stuff being said here, not only about TV and its influence on our culture, but also about the responsibilities we humans have to each other.
Obviously, TV and other mass media can be methods of escape or complete disengagement -- and perhaps they too often are -- but they can also be tools to help us be more fully engaged in the life around us.
Whatever we (on this forum) may think about TV and the way it does or doesn't fit into our lives, however, I think we're all pretty much in agreement about the LOA gurus' advice and motives. When someone like Joe Vitale (or any one of his New-Wage/McSpirituality colleagues) advises readers not to watch TV news, the motive is probably not to advance said readers' spiritual development, no matter how the gurus couch it.
I remember all the New-Wage advice that was flying around at the height (or depth) of the Great Recession...
http://cosmicconnie.blogspot.com/2009/02/recession-what-recession.html
Rhonda Byrne -- another name frequently invoked in these discussions -- seems to be the personification of LOA self-centeredness and amorality, as she has demonstrated in dozens of ways besides the excellent example Kathryn provides of Rhonda's appropriation of Bonhoeffer. Four and a half years ago I wrote a post about Rhonda's callousness.
http://cosmicconnie.blogspot.com/2006/12/help-me-rhonda.html
If The Power is any indication of Rhonda's thought processes, I'd say she hasn't changed much since that post was written.
Connie said...
ReplyDeleteI think we're all pretty much in agreement about the LOA gurus' advice and motives.
and I completely agree...thousand percent. I do know some deeply 'spiritual' people who do believe with their whole hearts that focusing on the positive through meditation, chanting...sacrificing virgins (just kidding, can't find any virgins these days) is the best way they can help the planet.
I still think sacrificing virgins is the way to go tho~not deaf virgins however because they are out of the vortex.
Baaaa baaaa baaaa
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQO-aOdJLiw
Clarity, the lack of virgins must be why the sparkly unicorn visions peddled by the New-Wage gurus are so elusive.
ReplyDeleteFirst it was an ovine pushmipullyu... then it got crazy. Good vid, HHH.
ReplyDeleteHere's that link again, for anyone who didn't catch it the first time and is too lazy to scroll back up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQO-aOdJLiw
Just a side note~
ReplyDeleteWhen there was talk of war with Iraqi I didn't give it any credence. Figured it would never float bc it was so way over the top (like way way). I was not following the news. One afternoon all at once all the dogs in the area went into the most mournful howling that just kept going on and on and on, like nothing I have heard before. I stood there feeling their howl run through every fiber of my being wondering, wondering. Few hours later I found out ‘shock and awe’ had begun. The time of the howling was exactly when the first bomb was dropped.
So I didn't need the news to keep me up to speed and I had a very personal never to forget moment of what it feels like to drop a bomb on innocents.
Clarity, that kind of experience -- and empathy -- is exactly the kind that folks such as Rhonda Byrne will probably never have. Rhonda's too busy attracting cute little skirts from Paris while she hides out from her critics.
ReplyDeleteKnew you'd like it, bonkers innit?
ReplyDeleteI've been a seeker and for a while fell for Abraham. But last year when i went to see them in Albuquerque I noticed that jerry looked very frail and unhealthy and decided any true aligner wouldn't be like that and i had my doubts. i think the introductionsjerry writes to their books shows the evolution of Abraham's teachings and I think he came up with a great money-making scam that justified making all that money. i don't wish Jerry any ill health but would love to see the scam unravel.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Anon. Schemes such as Abe-Hicks promise "miraculous" results to followers -- glowing good health, perpetual happiness, monetary wealth beyond belief -- but more often than not, even the perpetrators of the schemes end up as living examples that the teachings are, to put it kindly, less than effective. That appears to be what's happening now with Jerry Hicks and the teachings of "Abe."
ReplyDeleteDespite my personal disbelief in "Abe," I don't think that there would be any controversy whatsoever about Jerry Hicks' chemo if the Hicks had kept all of "Abe's" messages in in the realm of the philosophical, or if they'd just stuck with "spiritual" teachings and general instructions on how to live an ethical and responsible life. Instead they sold a whole package that promised good physical health, wealth, happiness and everything else a person could desire. Obviously, Jerry Hicks decided that modern medicine offered a few things Abe couldn't.
Let that be a lesson to future scammers: Keep your shtick in the realm of the abstract, and only promise things that can't be easily measured, and claims that can't be easily disproved. Otherwise, when life throws you a curve, you could end up with a serious PR/marketing problem
Connie - I followed you over from SD's site and Oh. My. Abe. I had no idea. I can spend days just reading about these Hickses - I seriously never knew people like this existed! Thanks for your amazing site - I'm gonna go educate myself now!
ReplyDeleteHi, 2LateSmart: It's good to see you here. (And it's never 2Late to catch up on all the New-Wage scams and schemes that are floating around.)
ReplyDeleteYes, Abe (or rather "their" mouthpiece Esther) was a big star in the original version of The Secret, but Esther, Jerry, and Abe already had a good scam going before The Secret, and of course they continued it after being booted from the franchise.
Have fun, and keep in touch!
Everyone who's interested in this discussion might also be interested in the mini-discussion about Abe-Hicks on another recent post of mine. It started with a comment Peter Wink (former marketing VP for Joe Vitale; current marketing VP for Kevin Trudeau) made about the hypocrisy of some New-Wage gurus. In his comment Peter also mentioned Jerry Hicks' cancer treatments... and the discussion continued from there.
ReplyDeleteHere's where it begins:
http://tinyurl.com/5wdd39j
Hey, everyone: It occurred to me that the month of June is nearly halfway gone and I have yet to write a new blog post. I've been busy with other stuff, as usual, though also per usual I have several half-finished posts, so I'll try to get a couple of them finished and published within the next week or so.
ReplyDeleteI'm also awaiting further feedback/permission from a formerly VERY loyal Abe follower who had some devastating experiences with A-H after calling them on some of their inconsistencies. So stay tuned. Depending upon the amount of info I am allowed to share I'll either post that story as a comment here, or as a separate blog post.
Meanwhile, I want to point out something I came across on the Abe Forum. A year and a half before there was Jerry Hicks' [probable] cancer, there was Wayne Dyer's cancer diagnosis, which send some of the Abers into a tailspin. Some couldn't imagine how or why such an in-tune being as Dyer -- who had been citing the teachings of Abe for years and years and years -- could have manifested or attracted such a terrible thing as a cancer diagnosis.
Dyer had been diagnosed with a form of leukemia that many mind-body/LOA believers/New-Wagers associate with the harboring of negative thoughts. And, Abe or no Abe, Dyer is one of scads of New-Wage gurus who preach relentless positivity as a gateway to glowing good health.
I found the Abers' discussion to be truly amusing, and was not surprised that the consensus among at least some Abers was that, while the problem was disturbing, it was best not to focus too much attention on the matter.
http://www.theabeforum.com/forum2/14518-1.html
PS ~ I haven't really been keeping up with Wayne Dyer's progress, but apparently he has either recovered or his cancer is in remission, as indicated by the busy schedule he's been keeping with Hay House Radio, among other things:
http://www.hayhouseradio.com/episode_preview.php?show_id=16
In April of this year he spoke about Healing Miracles...
"April 25, 2011: Healing Miracles
Dr. Wayne Dyer shares his experience of spiritual surgery with renowned healer John of God. Dr. Dyer discusses the power of aligning your thoughts with God and just allowing healing to take place. Learn how to live the truth in your own life and understand that you are more than just your physical body. Dr. Dyer talks with several callers who are having challenging relationships with family members."
No word, at least not in that blurb, about whether or not he availed himself of actual medical care. But when Googling I did find what I think is a publicly accessible Facebook page (at least accessible to Facebook members), in which Dyer was quoted as saying this about his diagnosis: "I don't think of it as cancer. It's chronic lymphocytic leukemia, not life-threatening, and it's been a great blessing in my life. We're all infinite spiritual beings having a temporary human experience. Find that ... within yourself."
The person sharing the link thought this was pretty outrageous, considering that people do indeed die of CLL. Here is a permalink that should work:
http://www.facebook.com/drwaynedyer/posts/110408242327616
And OMT: Going further back in time, here's a Wayne-ish character on my Whirled: http://cosmicconnie.blogspot.com/2006/07/here-comes-wayne-again.html
Connie, what won at the whale Oscars this year?
ReplyDeleteHey Cosmic Connie,
ReplyDeleteRight after Dr. Wayne Dyer was diagnosed with leukemia, he was being interviewed by Dr. Christiane Northrup, and she was giving her metaphysical explanation for the "psychological origins" of leukemia (she said that it had to do with family issues). I can't imagine how annoying it must be to have all these self-healing gurus like Louise Hay and Northrup around you, telling you their interpretation of your diagnosis and how you can heal it. A lot of these guys' philosophies don't agree with each other, so I'm sure it must bug him to hear all their inconsistent woo about what the "vibrational" or "spiritual" cause of his illness is.
Coincidence?
ReplyDelete1. Hallucinations; hearing voices in your head, telling you to do things (ie, channeling Abe);
2. Delusions of grandeur (Law of attraction, positivity attracts positivity);
3. Involuntary movements of the tongue or mouth (facial dyskinesias)- (Esther has constantly claimed she has no control when she channels Abe);
4. Feeling detached from own body (again, Esther has claimed she does not feel herself when channeling Abe);
5. Intense and excessive preoccupation with religion or spirituality.
I believe that no psychiatrist would have great difficulty in making a diagnosis of schizophrenia in accordance with the criteria set out by the American diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (DSM-IV-TR).
The similarities of symptoms are uncanny!
I checked the link you provided over on the Abe forum about Dyer. That is an interesting bunch there. They can rationalize anything into or out of existence and are very entertaining. If that forum wasn't moderated I would definitely like to put my theory to the test. I have time so I want to do a brief synopsis of some of the posts and what went on in that thread if I may.
ReplyDeleteFirst poster asks legitimate question about Dyer having cancer.
2nd poster - He got it cause he isn't pure enough and has too much goodiness and god pleasing. (Yet trying to please a vortex is o.k).
3rd poster - Likes Dyer but we still have to learn to vibrate cancer out of existence.
5th poster - There are millions of ways he could of chose this or resisted cancer into his life.
7th poster - Masters attract this kinda stuff to show people "Hey this don't bother me none," and that makes us regular folk rejoice.
9th poster- Dyer has the tools to focus on his well being and when he realizes how Abe taught him to overcome cancer. Poof! It will happen.
10th poster - Dyer obviously got sick because he believes in physical healing and going to the doctor.
11th poster - Great souls don't heal themselves and die because they are needed in another time/century.
12th poster - We need to make the word "cancer" as casual as "pimple" or "splinter" then it will basically never manifest or kill people.
14th poster - I knew someone who went to normal doctor and also used teachings to heal themselves. Good thing he used the teachings or else he would of been a goner.
17th poster - Croaking/dying is still well being people! Duh!
Moderator- Get in line people. This forum is about discussing how Abe's teachings perfect our lives. Not Wayne Dyer getting cancer, but while we are on the subject...
18th poster - The big question is, why did I attract a teacher (Dyer) who gets cancer? WTF? (You will have to ask that again soon my dear).
Moderator - Now that is a goddamn good question (I imagine he is silently gleeful that Dyers teachings aren't as good as Abes cause Dyer got sick and the Hicks are perfect). But that is soon to change as we know now.
19th poster to Mod -I love the way you lovingly moderate us and keep us in line.
20th poster - Dyer wrote book about thinking and excuses,that is reason he got cancer. If he dies, so what? He will be with Abraham anyways.
23rd poster - Dyers problem is he got his "stream" going too fast. Doing that = getting cancer. He needs to let go of resistance. How could he not know that?
25th poster person ironically named Goldheart- Just like that time Abe talked about guy who landed plane in the Hudson (the pilot who saved all those lives). Abraham said, why would you want to fly with a guy who has "crash" in his vibration? Average folk are singing his praises but we know better and see that the guy was really just out of alignment or that never would have happened.
26th poster - Dyer got this so that he can overcome it and be LUCKY enough to put this in his escrow. His IB must be so joyous that he is helping planet like that.
27th poster - We shouldn't analyze someones path like we are. He will get into alignment either by croaking or pre-croaking. Abe says its o.k to get out of vortex cause getting back in is what its all about.
28th poster Goldheart again- This is just like when gays were starting to get aids and people wondering what they did to get it. Those dumbasses were passing judgment when in reality it is all fear based. GET HAPPY PEOPLE and get into the vortex!!! Geesh. (As this person ends post with an 8 drum 'icon" salute to herself).
29th and original poster - Thanks guys for input but I wasn't insinuating that he did anything wrong to get it, was just thinking if a great guy like him got it, whats in store for me. So thanks? (as she silently contemplates what she got herself into by joining these crazy folk).
And scene...
Krill by mouth.
ReplyDeleteTBeast said...
ReplyDeletei found your post completely hysterical. Thanks for the best laugh I' ve had this morning :)
HHH: You will have to pardon my slowness. I attribute it to the heat, which is in the triple digits in my neck of the hot, dry woods. But could you repeat the whale questions with a little more explanation? Thanks!
ReplyDeleteKyra (Tuesday, June 14, 2011 6:27:00 PM): While it may very well have been annoying to Wayne Dyer to be surrounded by so many New-Wage "medical" diagnoses, it seems that he participated in the shtick with his own bouncy, cheery "cancer is NBD" routine. If cancer really is NBD to him, more power to him. But that's not the case for everyone and the bouncy, cheery crap (as well as the LOA guilt bilge) probably do more harm than good.
ReplyDeleteRoger, I would tend to agree with you about the schizophrenia diagnosis if "Abe" had just started appearing spontaneously out of the blue to Esther. But from her own account, she and Jerry made a concerted and concentrated effort to begin "receiving," after having been inspired by Jane Roberts.
ReplyDeleteApparently it was Jerry's idea in the first place, and my guess is that, being the showman and con artist he was, he felt there was a real money op in this channeling biz. I remember hearing a radio interview between Oprah and Esther in which Esther seemed to make it pretty clear that Jerry was the one who strongly encouraged her to start contacting the spirit world. But that point also seems implicit in a 2007 piece published in The (UK) Independent.
For the benefit of those who haven't yet read it, here's a link to that article. It gives background info on the Esther and Abe Show, and also reveals the callous attitudes of the Hicks:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general946.html
TBeast, I agree with Clarity. Your post provided a good hearty laugh. It's sometimes hard to believe these are actual grownups -- and presumably educated ones -- participating in that conversation and others like it.
ReplyDelete"the bouncy, cheery crap (as well as the LOA guilt bilge) probably do more harm than good."
ReplyDeleteHave you read "Brght-Sided" by Barbarah Ehrenreich? It's a great book about all the postive-thinking bullying she endured when she went through breast cancer, and a great analysis of the movement in general.
Hi, TG. As a matter of fact I was thinking about that very book as I was writing my comment about cheery crap. I haven't read the whole book but have read excerpts and lots of related articles and interviews. I'm a long-time fan of Barbara Ehrenreich. I really do need to go ahead and buy the book and read all of it. Thanks for mentioning it.
ReplyDeleteSee, krill is a creature that lives in the sea and is eaten by whales, usually done rare and unseasoned.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQWoITr6vtc&feature=related
Nil by Mouth is a film
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F9bNgBg_9k
A pun is a humourous word play based on the intentional use and abuse of homophonic, homographic, metonymic, or metaphorical language.
No, it's not relevant to anything.
Krill by Mouth
ho ho ho.
Puns? Do tell. Never heard of 'em.
ReplyDeleteI got the connection between krill and whales; was just puzzled by the "whale Oscars" question.
How else do I get the film reference in there? Seemed obvious to me!
ReplyDeleteBTW, I've noticed the hoo-ha about the TSA groping people that's been going on in Texas. Fascinating, is it as bad as it seems from this distance?
Got it, HHH. I appreciate the injection of culture into this discussion. Dunno firsthand about the TSA groping. I stay as far away from airports as I can. I do know folks are getting p.o.'d about it, and eventually there may be a citizen uprising, so the groping days (and nekkid-body X-ray days) may be numbered.
ReplyDeleteJust whaling away the time, Connie.
ReplyDeleteI was watching Dreaming Bear telling his audience that a wave of spiritual something or other was sweeping the nation. Entertaining stuff, but I thought a wave of poverty, distress and authoritarianism was sweeping your country. I must be looking at it from a negative perspective or something.
Nah, I think you got it right, HHH. Unfortunately.
ReplyDeleteSo if I come to America can I have the grope done by a babe, or will it be by a dumb pot bellied donut eating goon?
ReplyDeleteCould I have it personally by Janet Napolitano? She's kind of chunky, but she has that crazed Stanford-prison-experiment-gone-wrong look in her eye that says she may provide an excellent BDSM experience. I reckon she would squeeze them hard and let me know who's boss, ooh yeah!
I don't think Janet N. is available for those activities, but perhaps if you smile real sweetly you can get an agent to dress up like her or at least act like her. It's worth a shot, anyway.
ReplyDeleteThey would do that for me? It's more liberal there than I thought!
ReplyDeleteI do bash America a bit nowadays, but I'll tell you I do like your anthem and flag. It's a great tune, bold, breezy, hearty, and I like the pretty stars and stripes.
ReplyDeleteBurm bum burm burm burm burrrrm! Burm bum burm burm burm burrrrm! Cracking, that!
Still nothing to talk about but the folly you perceive in other people and gleefully dancing on their names to make yourself look superior and funny behind their backs and looking for thumbs ups from likeminded people who own computers I see?
ReplyDeleteSome thing never change. oh well.
What a waste of a mind. Feel free to start saying things to people faces you feel are worth saying any time hun.
HHH: I think America The Beautiful would make a better national anthem for the US, but nobody asked me.
ReplyDeleteAnon June 19: "Behind people's backs?" Um, I think not. This is a public blog, and the people I write about are free to read it and respond if they wish. My critical comments normally don't get published on believer blogs.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I am not a "hun."
If you think it is so important for Jerry, Esther, and their imaginary friend Abe to see this, you can show it to them yourself.
Of course it's fairly common knowledge, isn't it, that the melody for "The Star-Spangled Banner" was actually heisted from an old British drinking song? Legend had it the original song was used as a sobriety test--if you could get through an entire stanza, you were sober enough for another drink.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMojo: Darn us Yanks anyway. We also appropriated "God Save The Queen" in order for generations of elementary school kids to have something to sing in class in the morning.
ReplyDeleteRon: Good points, especially as you've been banned not only from commenting on a certain hustledork/WM snarget's blog, but he has even blocked you from sending him any emails. The h-dorks do not like criticism.
ReplyDelete"The h-dorks do not like criticism."
ReplyDeleteIt need not even be criticism. Vitale, for example, has refused to publish honest questions, presented most civilly, that he obviously was unable or unwilling to answer. And not just from supposed "haters" like myself. I have been contacted by a couple of friends who have had their comments and questions blocked, which effectively belies Vitale's claims that the only messages he refuses to publish are from 3 people who supposedly "make a career out of trying to hurt him." The whine factor in hios assertion is really pretty funny, as is his overblown perspective of his importance to other people who simply know him too well to swallow his BS.
"The Star-Spangled Banner" was actually heisted from an old British drinking song?"
ReplyDeleteIt's a legend they never talk about round here, never heard this one before. Who told you that?
"We also appropriated "God Save The Queen" in order for generations of elementary school kids to have something to sing in class in the morning."
You did? It's a stinker of a tune, really is bad. It's like the sound of cold porridge on a wet thursday morning.
HHH: I'll take the lazy way out here and just cite Wikipedia:
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Anacreon_in_Heaven
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Country,_%27Tis_of_Thee
Ron: I agree that with the h-dorks it doesn't have to be direct criticism -- just pointed questions that imply criticism and b.s. detection.
ReplyDeleteConnie said~
ReplyDeleteI'm also awaiting further feedback/permission from a formerly VERY loyal Abe follower who had some devastating experiences with A-H after calling them on some of their inconsistencies. So stay tuned. Depending upon the amount of info I am allowed to share I'll either post that story as a comment here, or as a separate blog post.
~
2 cents~not the first time this has come up re the Hicks. Ppl come forward to a chosen few that could distribute the information which would in turn help others seeking a ha, broader perspective, but the chosen few are limited in what they can reveal.
As long as a name is not attached to the information their is no libel. The information can be released in a 'ghost writing' context that will protect the names of the innocent *smile*. Excuses range as to why the secrecy but it boils down to, as I've been told in the past, it would make things uncomfortable for the revealer.
Well sure, everyone talks about the self preservation mindset of the Abers but this is of the same cloth. If there are ones who do actually possess information that might help many others and to sit on it or let a few pieces dribble out they are no different to me than the ones they are pointing fingers at. I used to say I understand but you know what...I don't. Basically I think the ones who could come forward and don't...through an anonymous source of course, are just as much mind controlled as any of the others. They are allowing some kind of imagined control coming from the HIcks camp.
Bingo, zap...the HIcks have you coming and going don't they?
Bah humbug to these anon sources that are more concerned with protecting themselves than taking back their power and helping others in the process. Mind control at it's finest :)
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to loose.
Thanks for the perspective, Clarity, which for my money is worth a lot more than two cents. :-) I too have mulled over the very points you made, as I always do when someone contacts me with information that they are afraid to share publicly or non-anonymously. However, my policy is always to go out of my way to respect anonymity. In the time-honored way of free-world journos, I like to protect my sources.
ReplyDeleteI recognize that people have their own reasons for shielding or scrambling their real identity -- even though I will say right up front that I am not above chiding detractors and trolls who cloak themselves in anonymity. (I never claimed to be totally consistent.)
The former Abe follower to whom I referred did express the wish to help others but also expressed mixed feelings about whether or not to share, and also mentioned plans to be out of town for a couple of weeks and therefore not able to deal with the process of sorting through information and deciding what to share.
Some people are more easily intimidated than others by the threat -- either real or imagined -- of defamation actions, and in addition, people who had a prolonged and deep emotional and financial stake in the the targets of their criticism are also going to have mixed feelings. So while you could look at this as the Hicks still calling the shots and exercising control, I'm not going to attempt to coerce anyone into whistle-blowing. If it happens, if happens. If I've been played... well, worse things have happened.
But I hope you'll stay tuned anyway. And thank you again for your very informed perspective.
Oh, I'll stay tuned for sure. Rereading my post I'm not sure if I made it perfectly clear that going anonymous I have no problem with. However, once going anon I see no reason to hold back. Reasoning is this…someone deflects from the Hicks camp and says I was damaged and they are damaging others. K, fine, your experience. I was so damaged and I want to tell you my story but it’s a secret, or part of it is a secret, whatever. Well, if you via your experience were damaged and you believe someone via that same avenue is damaging others then where do you stand within your own ethical guidelines? One of the fingers pointed at the Hicks camp is they are self serving. By withholding information that could help others ‘being damaged’ because of a self serving mindset (it will cause me grief bc ‘they’ will do fill in the blank) just puts you in the same place ‘they’ are ‘they’ being the Hicks camp. Now again, I’ve got no problem with this…if someone is self serving fine, great, go with what floats your boat. But don’t point fingers at another without seeing that the finger points back to you too.
ReplyDeleteThose that come forward to a journalist and say protect my identity but please get this information out…to me that is admirable. The ability to leak information in an anon fashion is a beautiful little tool.
‘They’ will know I’m the one who said it…so frigin what. Nothing legally ‘they’ can do. ‘They’ can be upset…so what. ‘They’ can make harassing phone calls…news flash, that’s what call block is for or voice mail. Works like a charm…I use it all the time.
Sometimes I think they just want a sympathetic ear to tell their story of woe to. Ha, journalists are like bartenders in that respect.
When there is a great fraud being perpetuated it’s the whistleblowers that are the shining stars imho. Thru various avenues they get the word out and contribute to the crumbling of the façade. They ‘put their money where their mouth is’ so to speak. The rest just whine in private and like spreading little tidbits of gossip but it serves no purpose in a greater sense. These kinds of ppl just want attention imho. It’s always great fun to tell ‘your story’ and have a bended ear.
I was ‘into’ Abe for 2 years. I didn’t have any bad experiences. Instead of the teachings isolating me from friends and family it strengthened them. I reached out to my dad I had not spoken to in 6 years. Abe used to say ‘we are lovers’ and I took that message to heart. I let all past ‘hurts’ go and put my attention on feeling appreciation for everyone who had played a part in my journey. For me the teachings explained how vibration worked…I didn’t care about the rest. Yes, I know the vibration thing is not new and had been working on connecting the dots most of my life. The teachings via Abe, Ester or that great Kahuna in the sky, who knows, clarified for me how vibration works. Having a clear understanding of vibration I have more compassion for others. I think where a lot of the Abers went astray, including the Hicks, is they translate the message through their thoughts and let’s face it, thoughts are by the nature of this density, cogitative bias. Vibration is something you feel, it is visceral. It is possible to get very skilled at identifying and then riding the vibrations. It’s what the ancient ‘martial’ arts are based on, ancient healing methods…things dating back thousands of years. New Thought circa 1900 was simply revisiting knowledge thousands of years old and trying to work it into a framework for ‘today’. That quest never ends…how to work an infinite knowing into a finite framework.
cont...
So I wasn't damaged, my life didn't fall apart, everything improved. I had seen the inconsistencies and knew I would address them some day. The spider bite just put that project to the top of the tuit list. I like to believe the best in ppl and I wanted to believe the best about the Hicks. I had always considered Ester not the brightest light on the tree who liked to shop and wore bad false eyelashes. Yes, I said that even when I was an Aber. Jerry was just a dork to me that had marketing scam written all over him. Didn't matter…the explanations for how vibration works clarified some things for me, gave me the tools to take the exploration to a new level. I had a few days of feeling sad that the Hicks might be a bit more insidious than I gave them credit for but life goes on. My exploration continues, I've added new toys to the sandbox and I’m doing great. It is the same for my Aber friends too…we have all moved on, felt we gained tremendous benefit.
ReplyDeleteBut I do see that there are others who had the teachings affect them in a very negative way. Apparently families torn apart, careers botched, unwise medical choices, horror stories abound. So the whistleblowers could help others that are in the situation of wanting to connect dots and ‘break free’. To not help others ‘break free’ bc of your own self imposed mind control or desire to avoid uncomfortable situations is fine. I always support the choices of others (not withstanding crimes of violence etc). However imho you did not ‘break free’ and you do not really care about others which is ha, the main complaint I hear about the Hicks Abeway.
Whistleblowers have changed the course of operations much bigger than Abeway. They have done so at great personal risk to themselves and family, many even losing their lives in the process. Whistleblowers for the Abeway are not in this kind of peril. They are in a position to help others and not doing so makes them just like the ones they point fingers at imho.
Another ha, 2 cents.
Clarity, thanks for the additional comments. I've been on deadline today and haven't had time to reply in detail. But you make good points.
ReplyDeleteEveryone: Kyra informs me that she heard from a source close to the Hicks that Jerry does indeed have leukemia. Here is a link to her post:
http://kyrasdiary.blogspot.com/2011/06/source-says-jerry-hicks-has-leukemia.html
Ah, a whistleblower in the inner circle. At least someone has some balls.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to cross post this to the 'big 3' bc this is what abers are dealing with and more reason I think not spilling the beans (HIcks and whistleblowers alike) is unconscionable
ReplyDeletePosted an hour ago on the Abe Forum. The Abe forum where David Gordon is not only dictated to by the Hicks but is a member of the inner circle and would most certainly know of Jerry's leukemia.
brokenhearted...
Usually I wouldn't post something like this, cause I hate to show this kind of weakness...but I don't really know what else to do right now. I am so brokenhearted...I'm sorry this is so OOTV...
I really want to die right now. I want to give up on everything. I am so brokenhearted. I feel like I am not happy here. I work on myself so much, I work on being happy and being the best version of me...but I feel like no matter what I do, things ultimately end up in the same place.
I am sooooooo brokenhearted. I keep coming so close to my dream and it looks like everything is gonna be amazing, and I am so excited and positive and confident (and I know that I am b/c I am really in touch with my emotions...).. and then it falls apart, badly. For no reason. I've been living this over and over for years. And I keep trying to just pick my head up and trust and let go and know things will work out...but then they don't and I don't get it.
And I know that what Marc would say is, well you must have a vibration of it or LOA wouldn't bring it to you....
and that's fine and good and I get it...But i don't know what else to do.I am sooo sad. I don't know why if there is only a stream of goodness, that all of the relaxing and releasing I have done over the last year or so, all of the being happier, all of the trusting that things will get better...I don't know why things don't just work out. It feels like a cruel fucking joke. I had like 5 major major opportunities with amazing news that mean the world to me that I was so excited about and then 5 horrible disappointments and shocking outcomes...
And each time I kept telling myself, that's okay, your so close. Who knows what little resistance is keeping you from this, but something better is coming. AND i was so proud of myself for being so positive about it and for trusting something else would come...and something new came along that was amazing. I was so excited, so soooo positive. So excited to work with this new amazing person who heard my music and loved it and was so nice and cool...and then, bam it falls apart for no reason. I felt sooo good, so confident, inspired, excited...I do not get it!
i am so tired of this...Why can't life just be good. why can't it just be easy. Why can't this just work, cause I deserve it, cause I am great at what I do, because I love this more than anything in the world. Why can't I just be happy, why can't life just work for me. Why can't this just be the amazing adventure that it is supposed to be..it shouldn't be this hard.
What the f*ck is wrong with me.....
I don't understand why on earth I wouldn't want to come here to live like this...It is so damn hard here. If there is a stream of goodness and love then where is it, and why is my absolute best at loving and living and dreaming and hoping and releasing and distracting and meditating and trusting in the universe not good enough....
I am so so so so sad...I love music. I just want to be happy. that's it. I just want to do what I love and be happy and give love to people and be happy. That's it...That's it....
Okay, I'm going to take a break from deadline stuff and the James Ray trial verdict news to respond in more depth to Clarity's latest comments.
ReplyDeleteClarity,first of all, thanks for sharing more of your own story about your experience with Abrascam. And I appreciate that you are able to acknowledge that even though you weren't traumatized or harmed by Abe-Hicks' teachings, others may have been. It's the old "YMMV" principle.
Your impatience with people who are cagey about sharing potentially helpful information is understandable. I get what you're saying. And perhaps you are correct when you say that there are certain types who "just whine in private and like spreading little tidbits of gossip but it serves no purpose in a greater sense." All I can say is that I didn't get the sense that my correspondent just wanted to gossip, nor that she just wanted attention. I suspect she is indeed concerned about revealing certain identifying details, even under the cloak of anonymity. More than anything, though, I think she just has mounds and mounds of information and is trying to sort through all of it in order to be able to present it in a coherent and effective manner.
I truly feel bad for people such as the Aber whose forum comment you quoted. I have seen similar comments from time to time on the forums of other New-Wage gurus (e.g., Mr. Fire) and when the gurus bother to address them at all, it's usually just to imply that the distressed commenter is doing something wrong, or not "getting" an important point -- all by way of referring the person to another one of the guru's frauducts.
Frankly, I'm not so sure that a person who is clinging so desperately to beliefs (as this sad Aber seems to be) would be helped even by a whistle blower. But I'll concede that it would be nice if all of the info was out there for such a person to see when s/he was ready for it.
And maybe it will be.
In short, while I agree with you that whistle blowing is an admirable thing, and that a whistle blower on the Abeway scam probably wouldn't face the degree of danger that corporate or political whistle blowers might face, I am still willing to cut my correspondent a little slack until I receive evidence that said slack is undeserved.
Yeah Connie…once again completely agree. My post wasn't per se directed at your correspondent. I was referring more in a general tone to 'secret' information that I hear rumors about but shush…cant tell, its a secret.
ReplyDeleteAnd quite frankly to goose anyone out there reading that might be more inclined to blow the whistle. Scams are perpetuated bc ppl are afraid. Getting past your fears in my world is a healthy thing and very empowering. Its kinda like the movie Network~I'm mad as hell and not going to take this anymore *smile*.
Hey, isn't anger moving up the emotional guidance scale *wink*
The real "secret," which the hustledorks are so frantically trying to keep from their followers is that death is an integral part of the human experience. Nobody gets out alive. The actual technical "cause" of death is really just a detail. Some bodies will last 100+ years, never experiencing illness until one day - thump - face down on the rug. Others will progressively deteriorate over the course of years. And still others will find themselves stepping off the curb at the same time someone else decides to run a light. The circumstances won't fit any "spiritual" model we try to come up with (and we try VERY hard!).
ReplyDeleteThe suggestion that we judge one's spirituality by his/her circumstances is the single most egregious fraud ever perpetuated upon humanity. We're dealt cards (beliefs as to our level of participation in the dealing itself are just that: beliefs), and the true measure of our evolution is in how we deal with the cards we've been dealt, rather than the value of the cards in our hand. And it is beyond our individual capacity to summarily judge another's choices, since we never get to actually see all of anyone else's "cards." Hell... most of us don't have a clue as to our own!
Embracing this simplest of concepts - which is at the core of every major religious teaching - would deny people like the Hicks, Joe, Rhonda, Ray, and all the other scammers the cash flow they so desperately seek, and would likely mark the end of 90% of the churches in the world. It would, however, bring us a giant step closer to the ideals that the scammers so strongly imply that they have for sale, despite the fact that their own lives - behind the curtain and the public persona - belie even a hint of the "wisdom" they describe.
Very well said, Ron. It's interesting that the gurus and hustledorks (and their followers) who frown at the critics for being "judgmental" are themselves so quick to judge, which is what they're very often doing when they speculate about the circumstances that led either to someone's great fortune or great misfortune. (Face it, we’re ALL judgmental. We should just own that and get on with judging, or trying not to.)
ReplyDeleteAs you know, one of our "favorite" snargets has often flaunted his wealth (most often in the form of expensive cars) as evidence that he has his spiritual ducks in a row, and that he has mastered whatever laws or techniques or "technologies" he happens to be selling at the moment. Conversely, he has been very much on the LOA bandwagon ever since The Secret, and has said or implied that people who suffered losses or traumas or illness somehow attracted it. Which, he hastens to add, is not their “fault,” because they’re usually attracting the bad stuff unconsciously, but he notes that they still have to take responsibility for it. Naturally, he has the remedy or remedies that will help them do just that.
And of course he's not alone in these simplistic and often arrogant declarations, which are really just marketing tools that are pretty standard in the New-Wage industry these days.
At one time poverty was considered by many who weren't poor themselves to be a moral failing. In more recent times it has been ascribed to psychological, emotional, or spiritual failings or ignorance – or to “creating one’s own reality” or “attracting” the circumstances. It’s the same with many diseases and even with natural disasters. Beyond the LOA/we-create-our-own-reality angle being a marketing tool (and, all too often, a convenient way of dismissing or condemning those with whom one doesn’t agree), it’s also a comfort to those who can’t stand the thought that sometimes s&%t just happens. Some people are attached to the notion that there just HAS to be a way to prevent all the bad stuff. For these people, LOA beliefs (or for more traditional types, pious religious beliefs) can provide not just comfort but also a false sense of empowerment.
Anyway, I think you hit it on the head with the idea that instead of spending so much time trying to determine WHY we’re dealt certain cards, we need to concentrate on how we’re going to play them. I will concede that some self-help and spiritual or even religious tools can be useful in helping some people “play” better, but IMO the vast majority is fluff, and as we’ve seen, some of it can be deeply harmful fluff.
You and Ron remind me of those "solders" up in the air who indiscriminately drop explosives from great heights and act violently towards other human beings in ways they would never dare or wish to do if they met the actual people face to face.
ReplyDeletePerson to person the pilots might actually act quite the opposite if they met their "targets" in an intimate setting off the computer , and even find themselves acting ashamed of their violent thoughtless actions towards others and would more then likely be confused by the human normalness of the people they were gleefully carpet bombing, as you two do.
You may see yourself as some humorous scornful freedom fighters, but I see you both acting like a new kind of internet terrorist, dropping constant massive ordnance upon those you conveniently label and perceive as villains, that you have grown very comfortable attacking using this cold technology (the internet).
Anon, I've recently been called a racist and a liar. I've long been called a hater, a loser, and an ignorant person who makes fun of what she cannot hope to understand, and who tries to tear down great people. So, ho-hum, add terrorist to the list. Yawn. Actually, it's not a new addition to the list. I've had this argument with you before, or with someone very much like you. So has Ron.
ReplyDelete(See discussion to "Whirled Wars" post (12-31-09) for an example.)
Rant on. I'm not biting this time.
How come I wasn't included in the terrorist thing?
ReplyDeleteI'M UPSET :(
"... and who tries to tear down great people"
ReplyDeleteI would not say you are attacking or tearing down "great people". I don't know know any "great people". I just see people.
So I would just say that yours and Ron's thing is to tear down people, using the internet and positioning yourself as superior to these people you cast as worthy of your scorn. You call the people you attack cute names like "snargets" to downplay the ruthless harmful cold nastiness of your internet campaigns.
Clarity, I'm truly sorry you felt left out. Ron and I happen to have a long history with this Anon person. I will continue to publish her comments until they get too repetitious and then I'll stop publishing them, and then she'll go away for a while, and then come back... It's an endless cycle. I am trying to keep the conversation free and open here, but even I have my limits.
ReplyDelete"...who makes fun of what she cannot hope to understand,..."
ReplyDeleteAnd I would also not label it people or things you "cannot hope to understand". I think you are both smart and understand more than most.
It is more you two making fun of what you do not approve and dislike and perceive yourself as superior to, and worthy of your hostility.
"...but even i have my limits"????
ReplyDeleteI post my view with this blog, what, once a year or so? That tests your limits?
Sounds like any person, who does not cheer your scorn for the people you deem worthy to be written about in your blog, presses in on your limits!
I am comfortable posting the little that i do and feel I am being respectful because:
1. I am talking directly to Connie the person I take issue with and
2. because I know Connie has it set up to approve or not approve anything posted and it is 100% her choice to make public anything that is submitted here. I have no issue with comments not being posted whatsoever and do not feel "censored" if something is not posted.
Anon, it does "test the limits" when you post the same argument over and over and over again. It's not just that you post one comment per year. It's more like a binge, where, during each visit, you post numerous comments and arguments and counter-arguments -- the same ones repeatedly -- and I get tired of arguing the same points.
ReplyDeleteSo carry on. You don't really have SHAMblog or Rev Ron's Rants to post to because they're not all that active. I still suggest that if you get bored here, you visit Salty Droid's blog and lecture him about his ruthlessness and harmfulness. That should be fun. But then again, maybe he's not attacking your heroes so you don't feel such a need to participate there.
" But then again, maybe he's not attacking your heroes "
ReplyDeleteWhat "heroes? Clever misdirection tactic Connie. You knowingly slip these key words in to rail against later. You dishonestly project that people elevate others as "heroes" or great people" so you can tear them both down.
The targets of your campaigns are not my "heroes". I don't know them, never met them and am not interested in them or what they are doing or not doing.
I just happen to have an interest in this cold technology used by bloggers like yourself and Ron, that is being used to make yourselves appear witty, savvy and superior and others inferior and worthy of scorn.
Not intended at all to be a misdirection tactic, just an educated guess. Do you go after every blogger who criticizes others in a "scornful" way? What about political bloggers? You must be very busy.
ReplyDeleteI only have so much time to dedicate to this but yes, I have posted the same complaint on a variety of topics.
ReplyDeleteI avoid politics, I can't understand what bloggers are talking about most of the time. I find it easier to follow animal rights, human rights, health, religion, entertainment, media, and self-improvement discussions etc.
"For now, I take comfort in the belief that our movement—this campaign-for-sanity that you and I and Connie and the Droid and John Curtis and Barbara Ehrenreich and Sally Satel and maybe a half-dozen others pioneered against great cultural odds—had to have played some supporting role in the jury's finding of guilt."
ReplyDeleteWow. You internet people are so clued out , it is actually a bit disturbing . You huddle here high five'ing each other for being hateful towards others and gleeful that you spread lies and talked about things you really know nothing about. It is hard to believe intelligent people would go down this path.
" In short, there's still a long battle ahead. "
You are living in a self important internet fantasy land where you are the heroes and anyone you disapprove of and point your fingers at is the villain.
And you say the individuals you blog about are off? Wow. "God" please protect us all from the "good people" like you, Ron and Steve.
"You are living in a self important internet fantasy land where you are the heroes and anyone you disapprove of and point your fingers at is the villain.
ReplyDeleteAnd you say the individuals you blog about are off? Wow. "God" please protect us all from the "good people" like you, Ron and Steve."
-----------
Last time I checked Connie, Ron, and Steve weren't fleecing the sick, desperate, and poor into emptying out their pocketbooks to buy what amounts to modern day snake oil.
Your posts have the scent of a Dave Gordon or other assorted Abe Hicks troll written all over them. As for the whole self important internet fantasy land, if that were true you should be praising all of these fine folks then, since apparently some of the 'Abe' rubbed off on them.
I mean really, who knows? Just maybe they'll end up in the Hot Seat sometime, that is if Jerry survives the next batch of chemo and Esther doesn't drink herself into a white hot coma.
xxx's and oooo's
Bryan
"...Last time I checked Connie, Ron, and Steve weren't fleecing the sick, desperate, and poor into emptying out their pocketbooks to buy what amounts to modern day snake oil. ...
ReplyDeleteBryan, does just because you Connie, Ron and Steve strongly believe or feel something is true, make it true or untrue?
Does just because you find yourselves agreeing with each other of a perception that people are being "fleeced" , that people are "sick, desperate, and poor" and that some big bad evil doer is "emptying out their pocketbooks to buy what amounts to modern day snake oil. ..." make it true?
"Last time you checked"?
When is the last time you checked anything? You read a few notes on the internet? , gave it a few moments of thought?, perhaps watched a few hours of television or YouTube? and all from a great distance from any actual people or events? THAT is your "checking"? If something sounds catchy or plausible you are comfortable to repeat it and act on it.
I question your "intel" .
There were no 'WMD''s last time I turned on the internet on the subject of Iraq.
But it sure was real enough of a story to send how many young people into war for how long?
Oh but WMD's were real dontcha know.
Just like the world really once was flat and witches were real enough to justify the burning of innocent women as witches.
How about people make all kinds of choices for themselves and choose to spend their time and give their business to people and things that you and I might not ever give our time or money to, and so what? You want to label them victims and dummies, well , that is you and your way of viewing people and the world.
Perhaps Apple is ripping dummies and victims off in the way they slowly release new shiney gadgets , perhaps many "legit" businesses are working night and day to sell us products we do not need or want.... perhaps fast food places are poisoning us and our children with food and contributing to obesity and diabetes and people have no choice about what they put in their mouths and they are all being duped, ok we have a world of dummies , except you Connie and Ron and Steve who see through the cons.
What a convenient (convenient for you 4 ) way of looking at the world around you. YOU are the savvy heroes, and we all are the little weak naive less savvy dummies. I sure hope none of you are making any $ or making any efforts to make $ from sick, desperate, and poor that are everyone but you.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteRon, that was a typo. I meant to write:
ReplyDelete"I can't understand what bloggers on the subject of American POLITICS are talking about most of the time." and that is why I have not ever posted on bogs that deal with the topic of politics.
"...My hope is that this go-round, you'll get fed up with her crap before your readers do...."
ReplyDeleteTrying to rally agreement on things you don't like and having others be your allies in silencing dissent Ron?
Thanks, Bryan and Ron. I generally have no problem with publishing Anon's comments but am not wasting any more time trying to defend myself. As I noted, we've had the same arguments over and over.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteRon, Sabu did mention that he would like to learn conversational Spanish.
ReplyDeleteRon ,
ReplyDelete"..I have no interest whatsoever in silencing dissent. Dissent implies a substantive disagreement with a given viewpoint, rather than whining about that viewpoint. And anonymous, we lost you at "substantive."..."
You are not my go-to person for definitions and I am not relying on what you conclude a word "implies" based on your world personal views. I do not look at you as any kind of authority that I admire or wish to be tutored by.
You can rail against you own "definitions" if you wish, but you are not in a discussion with me, you are in a discussion with yourself.
I do not agree with the views on these blogs, and I express that in the way that I wish, not in the way you try to coral me into doing , not up to your standards perhaps, but in the way I prefer to.
You project all kinds of things onto people, as does Connie , in order to build your cases to invalidate a person.
Ron,
ReplyDelete"Dissent" from Wikepedia
"Dissent is a sentiment or philosophy of non-agreement or opposition to a prevailing idea.
The term's antonyms include agreement, consensus (when all or nearly all parties agree on something) and consent (when one party agrees to a proposition made by another).
Individuals who do not conform or support the policies of certain states have been described as "dissidents."
Several thinkers have argued that a healthy society needs not only to protect, but also to encourage dissent."
NOTICE that Wikepedia says nothing about:
"... a substantive disagreement with a given viewpoint,..." which you add for your own convenience Ron.
IMO you are a dishonest grandstander who likes to read his own flowery writing.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, are you saying Connie should be censored for her opinions? This is her blog where she has every right to voice her opinions, even if you don't like them or agree with them. You claim you have no attachments or investment in the people she criticizes, but I find that hard to believe.
ReplyDeleteYou just dodge the issue with generalities and acting like some kind of martyr for free speech. Whirled Musings isn't a government or state that has the power to silence "dissent". Connie's not infringing on your first amendment rights.
"You are living in a self important internet fantasy land where you are the heroes and anyone you disapprove of and point your fingers at is the villain." How are you not doing the same thing, then?
theoreticalgrrrl,
ReplyDeleteok.
She's all yours, Connie. Enjoy.
ReplyDeletetheoreticalgrrrl said...
ReplyDelete"Anonymous, are you saying Connie should be censored for her opinions? "
RESPONSE: Not at all, I don't see where you would have gotten that from. t
"This is her blog where she has every right to voice her opinions, even if you don't like them or agree with them."
RESPONSE: I agree.
"You claim you have no attachments or investment in the people she criticizes, but I find that hard to believe. "
RESPONSE: What you feel and believe is noted.
"You just dodge the issue with generalities and acting like some kind of martyr for free speech."
RESPONSE: Says you.
"Whirled Musings isn't a government or state that has the power to silence "dissent"."
RESPONSE: Who said it was a " government or state that has the power to silence "dissent"." And where was this said?
"Connie's not infringing on your first amendment rights. "
RESPONSE: Who said she was? I did not say Connie was infringing on my first amendment rights.
"You are living in a self important internet fantasy land where you are the heroes and anyone you disapprove of and point your fingers at is the villain."
How are you not doing the same thing, then?"
RESPONSE: I very well may be doing the thing I am saying she is doing in parts. You make a solid point there.
The what if game~
ReplyDeleteWhat if ppl are coming out of the woodwork to diffuse the convo away from dear ole Jer and Abeway? I think I’m seeing the same thing on Kyra’s blog~
Just sayin~
Clarity, I agree with you about the diffusion tactic, but in this case I don't think it's just about Abeway. This particular Anon has come out on my blog numerous times before, as well as on Steve Salerno's SHAMblog.
ReplyDeleteFor Clarity: See the latest Anon comments on my June 25 post about Kevin True-dough, "For he's a jolly good felon." Also see the Anon comments on Steve Salerno's June 23 post on James Ray.
ReplyDeletehttp://shambook.blogspot.com/2011/06/can-lets-see-if-james-rays-inner.html
Actually, it's the mention of James Ray that seems to bring out my Anon friend as much as anything else, though she has participated in other blog discussions that weren't specifically about Ray, e.g.:
http://cosmicconnie.blogspot.com/2010/04/conversations-with-peter-wink-part-1.html
This isn't to imply that Anon isn't an Abe-Hicks fan too; I don't know.
Yeah Connie, I knew you would say that. It's just they all seem to be coming out of the woodwork at the same time (Dave's blog too). Are they hardwired together? It's not even a full moon~
ReplyDeleteLOL, Clarity. It's not surprising that they'd be coming out in force on the critical Abe-Hicks blogs, since the latest developments w/Jerry's cancer are very serious and not that many people seem to be speaking up about them. My own Anon friend comes and goes.
ReplyDeleteI guess that as "Internet terrorists," we critics should expect our share of detractors and diffusers. :-)
Connie/Clarity
ReplyDeletethere is no conspiracy, it is just the way of the message board. As I posted on Steve's bog, it is what is going on on every single topic 24/7. Nothing unique or special or important about your topics. People can talk smack, lord over others, and let their shadows run wild without consequence to themselves, in unregulated ways, so they do. Look up something you love and are passionate about and i BET i can find somebody calling it bankrupt or invalidating it somewhere on line.
People think because they believe it, because they have a thought, because they feel it, it must be true and must be post worthy. You, Ron and Steve all want to be writers and found a way to write and found a topic that attracts an audience, scandal gossip etc. and positioned yourself on some imaginary high ground in the meantime.
That none of you talks about this, about what you are, about the phenomena of blogging and opinion itself is puzzling to me.
Anon, the talk of "conspiracy" was facetious. Ron, Steve, and I were all writers LONG before we even heard of blogging. We continue to have paying writing careers outside of our hobby blogs.
ReplyDeleteAnon, as I noted oin Steve's blog, the fact that you encounter such inconsequential argument on every other blog in which you participate would lead the rational individual to inquire as to any common denominator among all those forums. And the obvious answer is that you are the common denominator.
ReplyDeleteIt has been my experience that forum discussions typically deteriorate shortly after the appearance of a troll, who engages not to discuss the points under review, but to attempt to deflect the discussion to a critique of the participants' motivation and agenda, as Steve Salerno has noted in response to your attempts to do just that on his blog.
I think it only appropriate for you to start your own blog, where you can whine about other people's motivations to your heart's content. I feel pretty comfortable in assuring you that neither Connie, Steve, nor I would devote any effort whatsoever to disproving your assertions. The real question is whether you could express your opinions without unfairly and inaccurately disparaging those whom you complain about. If your offerings to date are any indication, the answer is obviously no.
"It has been my experience that forum discussions typically deteriorate shortly after the appearance of a troll, who engages not to discuss the points under review, but to attempt to deflect the discussion to a critique of the participants' motivation and agenda, as Steve Salerno has noted in response to your attempts to do just that on his blog."
ReplyDeleteRESPONSE: Any posts that do not wink, nod, agree or high five with the prevailing view of this or Steve's blog are marginalized by you Ron. They are called "trolls" or "nonsense" or "apologists" by you.
I have made a few good points and questioned a few things that were not that out of line. I don't have to write like you or satisfy you Ron nor do I try to. I write on topic, I don't start talking about fly fishing or chinese cuisine. I happen not to agree with you or the blog , so you desperately try to invalidate me and frame my contribution as invalid and less than and not up to scratch.
You behave like an overbearing Nazi. You dislike your targets and think because you dislike something those people should not be allowed to exist. And you do the same to me. You dislike my commentary , so you do everything in your power to have connie and Steve block me and ignore me, to agree with how you feel.
And, for what it is worth, I like you Connie,
ReplyDeleteThis is silly. No one forces anyone to read a blog. Blogs abound all over the net. The blogger has set up a framework to express opinions. Opinions are just that, opinions. Don’t like what you read…read somewhere else. However, netetiquette would indicate that when you are a guest in a blogger's home you play by house rules. I would no more go to a skinhead’s blog and demand he/she grow hair or to a Jewish blog and demand they convert to Allah. A troll is someone who comes to stir up trouble…plain and simple. If this were my blog I would toss you out the door. It’s been my experience that trolls are basically insecure, bored, and have a lot of internal resistances they can’t cope with so they try and spread the resistance around. In that respect trolls, like us all, are seeking relief (kinda Abe quote minus the ref to trolls).
ReplyDeleteHowever, for all the rudeness that you ‘see’ you don’t see your own and if you were the child in my blog I would slap your hand and take away your privileges. I mean, what is the point? The delete button is a handy feature and I use it all the time, also works very well on voice mail. I don’t put up with piss ants. Connie you are way more patient that I am. What is the old saying patience is a virtue, but ha, maybe it’s a vice *wink*.
I'm still hoping the mystery whistle blower makes a showing myself *wink*.
Thank you, Clarity. While I think the presence of dissenters makes any blog conversation more interesting, when the dissenter just keeps hammering away at the same points over and over it does become somewhat silly.
ReplyDeleteI rarely engage directly on the blogs of New-Wage believers or those of my "snargets," but occasionally I do. Recently, for example, I engaged Joe "Mr. Fire" Vitale on his blog, asking him precisely what Operation Y.E.S., his plan to "end homelessness," has actually accomplished. I did it politely. You can see the results beginning here.
http://blog.mrfire.com/my-lunch-with-god/comment-page-1/#comment-207528
I think it's only good manners not to show all of my snark feathers on a New-Wage/believer blog. Thus I was polite and respectful on Joe's. But I also included a link to my blog, so anyone who wishes to follow it can do so.
On more than one occasion I have suggested that Anon join in the fray on Salty Droid's blog. But not only are Salty's participants considerably more rowdy, Salty also has a means of tracing every comment to the IP, so it might be easier for him to track down the identity of my Anon friend.
Anon, you know you rant here because you feel safe and because, as Clarity (and Ron) have pointed out, I have far more patience than most bloggers.
BTW, Clarity, I am going to send another "nudge" to the Abe "whistle-blower."
Anon, I have a feeling Ron will have a response to your "Nazi" comment, but you make yourself even less credible when you invoke that comparison.
ReplyDeleteRon's behaviour speaks loudly for itself, as does mine.
ReplyDeleteVisiting and revisiting here was a run-on mistake and indulgence on my part. Thanks for being generous Connie and I only went on and one because you allowed it. If the tables were turned , no way would I post your comments, I lack your kindness and peaceful accepting way.
I stand by my criticisms though and only said what i said because I was talking directly to you and because you have the option to post or not
Gone
No rebuttal needed to her "Nazi" accusation, Connie. Like she said, my actions - and hers - speak for themselves. And I have no problem whatsoever with what my actions say about me... a statement she is admittedly unable to make about her own participation.
ReplyDeleteI have never attempted to silence anyone because I disagreed with them, but I do grow weary of people who bring nothing to the discussion aside from their own issues, and strive to deflect the dialog with efforts to deride the motives of those who express opinions not to their liking. If that constitutes bullying, count me in.
“This has been a test of the Emergency Blogger System. The bloggers of your area in voluntary cooperation with the Federal, State and local Internet authorities have developed this system to keep you informed in the event of an emergency. If this had been an actual blog emergency the Attention Signal you just read would have been followed by official information, news or instructions. This concludes this test of the Emergency Blogger System. Bye for now.“
ReplyDeleteAnd now back to our regularly scheduled program already in progress~
It saddens me to read your post. To think that you have spent all the time it takes to write a blog post ( a long one at that) to slam others and make fun of good people. Maybe it is time to look within to see what you are so angry about.
ReplyDeleteYou obviously have writing talent. Why not use it in a more productive way?
Lyn
LOL, Clarity. Judging from the Anon comment that came in a couple of days after yours, it looks like we are indeed back to our regularly scheduled programming.
ReplyDeleteAnon: Friday, July 08, 2011 10:12:00 AM
ReplyDeleteThanks for your input. You'll have to get in line behind all of the other sad and angry people who are deeply concerned about why I'm "wasting" my talent on this little blog. While you're waiting, I respectfully suggest that you look within to see why you need to follow scammers who have imaginary friends.
I’m deeply concerned about you too Connie. You just need a nice long Abe cruise to get you back on track. How about going on the Hawaii cruise in Feb? Oh wait, I forgot. That cruise was canceled yesterday. An Aber, Joyous Lady on the Abe forum (David Gordon admin, employee of the Hicks) announced to all that the cruise was canceled.
ReplyDelete~
I just spoke with Worldview Travel. The Hawaii cruise is canceled. Refunds will be being processed for seminar deposits. If you booked on board a Holland America ship your cruise deposit will go toward future cruise and not be refunded. I am not sure how it works if you did the deposit later.
~
Seeing how the announcement was made under the radar Mr Gordon himself makes a showing with this post…
I found out about this early today and was waiting for a note from home office as to how to explain the particulars here. Direct all question to Worldview Travel for now. Otherwise, I don't see a reason for this thread to remain open. When I do get information they want here I will post it. You are welcome to PM me in the meantime.
~
And then closed the thread. Still scratching my head on that one…like why close the thread? Maybe give the flock a little time to back and forth to game plan how to recoup their $200 non refundable deposit without having to take a cruise sans Abe. Maybe give the flock a little time to muse over ‘wouldn’t it be nice if AH gave some complimentary tickets to an Abeway event as compensation’. God forbid they would ‘with all their millions’ (Hicks quote) actually reimburse any of the flock.
Silly me. Why should the Hicks give a damn when ppl are out anything? As we all know with the Hicks it is pay in advance and take your chances, gambling can be fun. Life is about having fun right?
Guess we’ll have to come up with another way for you to get on track Connie. Maybe a sweat lodge retreat in Sedona. Oh wait, that didn't work out so well either did it? Shit, what to do, what to do? I've got it…join me in my newest endeavor ‘Dead Pets Do Talk’ starting as soon as I finish my home study course with John Edwards ‘The Art of Cold Reading’. Abe highly recommends Mr. Edwards btw. We can help lots of ppl and dead pets plus make a passive (/aggressive) income to boot. With that you could seek professional help. I favor medication myself…better living thru chemicals.
Connie, I'm not sure that you're aware of this, but yesterday Abe-Hicks cancelled their Hawaiian cruise and all other ones in the foreseeable future. You go on their website and there is absolutely nothing there.
ReplyDeleteI went on the Abe forum and there was just mention that it was cancelled and the Hawaiian cruise thread was immediately locked by the moderator David.
I was looking a while back for some updates on Jerry's condition and was amazed to find that anyone who dared to bring it up on Abe Forum or Marcy's site, Positive Intentions, had their thread locked or totally removed.
I find these kinds of actions show a tremendous lack of transparency. One of my professional mentors is a follower of Andrew Cohen (another piece of work - check him out sometime). When someone came on the forum to question some of Andrew's more-than-questionable behavior, he was immediately thrown out and the thread disappeared.
There should be room for all and I see nothing wrong with questioning our teachers' agendas.
I wish Jerry well. Massive chemo is a bear to go through. So much collateral damage that makes me wonder if it's worth it.
My sense is Jerry doesn't have long to live before he croaks. It's hard to see Esther carrying on without him. I do hope she retires for her sake so she can spend time with her grandkids and do other things that she has put on the back burner.
Honestly, who didn't really see this coming? If you're teaching "you can heal everything with your thoughts" or something like that, it's only a matter of time that your teachings will be put to the test.
Connie, I attempted to take your advice and failed. I was so excited about sending you a link and having a debate on my terms :-)
ReplyDeleteI started a blog of my own and posted an essay discussing "critics and the public court of opinion" , but once it was up looked at what it was and what it would become and deleted it.
I could find no easy way to do it without putting down other people nor drawing other people into doing it. Inevitably it would attract blog conversation that focused on what is wrong with others 'out there' and what is so right and superior about the opinions of the blog participants.
In a scene in a film "How Do You Know", Paul Rudd's character "George" runs outof patience and asks Jack Nicholsen's character "Charles" ( playing his father ) not to yell while he is talking to him. It was a superb display of a person dealing with themselves IMO. Charles tries not to be belligerent and stops yelling and just talks , and stops and looks both frustrated and confused and trying to do something he has not done before, and says: "it is hard to say this and not to yell".
I think it takes a certain effort to write a compelling, attractive and poignant blog without speaking ill of other people 'out there' . Gossip is the juicy easy way to daw and keeps and a certain type of audience into a discussion. If one does not gossip they have to confront how hard it was to engage and hold people. We are more comfortable talking about other's obvious and terrible foibles and mistakes and weaknesses than sharing about and exploring our own humanity. People would rather sit around and vote on the show trial of the day or vote on the skills of the latest american idol or dance with the stars contestant.
I am no different than anyone else and could not do it. I gave it a go just for you though.
Clarity Saturday, July 09, 2011 2:27:00 AM, and Anon Saturday, July 09, 2011 9:28:00 AM: That's interesting news, though not surprising, about the cruise cancellation, as well as the lack of explanation. By now it is probably a HUGE elephant in the room, or the custom RV, as the case may be. Arguably the Hicks org is only making things worse by not talking about it, by closing threads about it to discussion, or by refusing to publish any mention of the whys and wherefores on the forums.
ReplyDeleteOTOH, they seem to have channeled themselves into one of those damned-if-they-do-and-damned-if-they-don't corners. If they *do* speak honestly about Jerry's condition, his treatment, and the resulting changes in their business schedule, they are as much as admitting that much of what they taught was a fraud, or at the very best has negligible real-world value when push comes to shove.
It's really interesting that bubbly Marcy From Maui would suppress discussion on her Powerful Intentions forum. Then again, it's not the first time that items on that forum have disappeared from sight (or site). In the heyday of The Secret I snarked quite a bit about Marcy and gang, particularly about how enamored they were of a truly scammy Sri Lankan "spiritual" leader who goes by the name of Tilak. Sweet Marcy, who probably really is a fun person to hang around, was bubbling and burbling about how utterly fantastic he was and about how everyone on Maui, including Blu-Blocker sunglasses mogul Joe Sugarman, thought Tilak was just sooooo cool. Apparently Tilak had a thing going with Rhonda Byrne for a while too. Then he started getting some bad press (my snarking was the least of it), and before long all mention of Tilak was gone, gone, gone from the Powerful Intentions forum.
And now there seems to be a conspiracy of silence among Abe-Hicks insiders. If it were merely to protect the privacy of Jerry Hicks, a motive I actually respect, that would be one thing. But it seems obvious that there's too much of the Abe-Hicks business empire at stake.
However, there's a third alternative to complete silence or utter honesty. After all, people who truly want to believe have a genius for rationalization. Esther's sparse public statements about chemo, etc. being "the path of least resistance" for Jerry were enough to get the rationalization ball rolling for some, and then a few Abers apparently took it up and continued to provide rationalizations and excuses for what many of us see as a glaring inconsistency between the Hicks' teachings and their practices.
Clarity, I've long toyed with the idea of being a "Pet Psychic." Maybe I will join you in your "Dead Pets Do Talk" scam... er... program. Maybe it should be "Dead Pets Do Tell Tales." :-)
Clarification regarding my previous remark about Tilak and Marcy From Maui's Powerful Intentions forum: Actually it was on her related blog, rather than the PI forum itself, that she did the most bubbling about the fantabulous Tilak. Those posts seem to be gone now.
ReplyDeleteHowever, numerous other discussion threads on the actual PI forum seemed to disappear after I snarked about and linked to them. I'm sure it was mere coincidence, though.
Anon Saturday, July 09, 2011 9:44:00 AM: I'm flattered. I've inspired at least one other short-lived "critic-watching" blog as well.
ReplyDeleteI actually don't think it takes extraordinary effort to write compellingly in a *positive* way about a topic. It takes three things: passion, time, and writing talent. Perhaps the majority of blogs -- both positive and negative -- show a lack of one or more of these factors.
Yet there are scads of well-written blogs out there that don't point fingers at someone or something.
OTOH there are also hundreds of thousands of gushing, positive-thinking, guru-worshiping blogs that are very poorly written. As well, there are hundreds of thousands of axe-grinding blogs that are just as poorly written.
That said, this little blog of mine, I'm gonna let it shine in the way that it's been shining for nearly five years. Those who find its glare offensive can shield their eyes or look elsewhere.
I do think you and I are in agreement about a few key matters. One is that gossip DOES sell. And real celebrity gossip forums such as TMZ will always attract millions more visitors than thoughtful, well-written blogs.
I stand corrected. Cking Holland America for the Hawaii cruise, which apparently is still taking deposits if I read correctly here are the terms...
ReplyDeleteAUTHORIZATION: Submitting this registration form authorizes a charge to the above credit card for a deposit now for $600 per person in US Dollars for the cruise and a deposit of $300 per person in US Dollars for the seminar, and the final payment on November 14, 2011. Confirmation and further information will be emailed to you once registration is completed.
So with no formal announcement to the flock from AH and until they get their web page straightened out you can still sign up for the cruise. Who knows, maybe some stop gap as the registration is taking your money, dunno. Not to mention until this announcement yesterday the promo is sign up now bc things fill up fast.
Let's see...hurry, sign up, David Gordon doesn't bother to make the announcement the cruise is canceled. That sure shows a lot of consideration for the flock eh? Then again I guess $600 is just chump change.
~
Thing is Connie I kept thinking why not do a true confessional…flocks love stories of redemption. But then you get into the sticky area of all the adorable ITV stories Abe loved to tell on J and E. That would kinda make some of what Abe said questionable. Well, a lot more is questionable but you catch my drift. That would only leave one kind of redemption, honesty, but I don’t see that happening any time soon.
Cruise info is not accessible from the homepage but if you go in thru other AH links cruise info and sign up now, hurry, fills up fast, is still up. Rumor has it their long time webmistress has jumped ship. Probably bc of all the jumping spiders.
And it’s not even that I wish Jerry ill. I don’t. I don’t wish cancer on anyone ever. I don’t wish suffering on anyone ever. But the Hicks continue to manipulate the flock and show complete disregard for even basic considerations. Reading the threads on the Abe forum tells a tale of so many of them scraping buy, driving broken cars among other things. So consider maybe some of the ‘not wealthy’ Abers managed to scrape together the deposit and have been saving their pennies for a long time for this cruise billed as…
Dear Friends,
It is so nice that we can offer these cruise formats as the backdrop for some of our Abraham seminars. It is just so much fun to be playing together with friends, on a luxurious ocean liner, on the magnificent waters of our beautiful planet. Makes us happy just thinking about it.
On February 4, 2012, we’ll be sailing for 14 Days, roundtrip from San Diego, California to Hawaii, on Holland America's 5 STAR m/s Oosterdam. Holland is giving us access to the beautiful Vista Lounge on our four outgoing days sailing to Hawaii and four sea days returning to San Diego. And so, we’ll have 16 hours of recorded seminar time with Abraham in total. We have all really enjoyed this cruise seminar schedule: Sleep in; bask; enjoy the wonderful ship and voyage during the mornings, and then the exhilarating leading-edge dialogs with Abraham in the afternoons. Of course, once we reach the beautiful Hawaiian Islands (the Big Island, Oahu, Kauai, and Maui) we’ll suspend the seminars so that you can enjoy all of the delicious things that Hawaii has to offer.
We understand that cabin availability for this cruise will go fast, so if you think you may like to join us, reserve your space as early as possible.
Aloha, with love,
Jerry & Esther
~
And now the deposit is toast unless you want to take a generic cruise somewhere sometime. In my world the announcement should have been…
We are sorry to announce we have to cancel our Hawaii cruise. We know that many of you put a lot of effort into saving for this. For any of you that do not intend to take a cruise on Holland America please notify the office and we will personally refund your $600 deposit. After all Abe says we are lovers and this is the only loving thing to do.
~
ps...Where is that darn little whistle blower?
I look how much a recent show trial with an attractive controversial character drew in and held a massive american audience and the court of public was alive with important opinions all voicing their strongly held views , with so many talking heads so sure they knew what was what and what should be done.
ReplyDeleteCompare this to the airplay the fact that a child dies every 5 seconds of poverty and some hunger related illnesses gets in the media media. To say nothing of the mothers that grieve and suffer the loss of these children every 5 seconds. But this story is not sexy. And no one has an opinion that just have to express about this unthinkable reality.
"And no one has an opinion that just have to express about this unthinkable reality."
ReplyDeleteRather than lament about how nobody has an opinion, how about starting a blog on the topics that inspire you and express those interests there? It would seem to be a much more productive exercise than complaining about the topics that others discuss on their blogs, don't you think?
Once again Ron, when you are right you are right! Thanks for the good advice. You are a correction's officer of the highest caliber.
ReplyDeleteAnon
P.S here is that last part just cleaned up a bit for clarity.
"Compare bloggers and the media's concerns for catchy victim stories , say, to the airplay, the certain fact that a child dies EVERY 5 seconds of poverty or some hunger related illnesses, receives. To say nothing of the mothers that grieve and suffer the loss of these children, also every 5 seconds. But a child dying every five seconds of hunger is not a sensational or sexy story. And no bloggers have burning opinions that just have to get expressed about this unthinkable reality."
I maintain that there ARE bloggers, journalists, editorial writers, letters-to-the-editor writers, and many others who DO have burning opinions about the unthinkable realities of poverty, starvation, disease, child abuse, and many other horrendous problems -- and are not afraid to express those opinions.
ReplyDeleteIt's true that the media glom on to the "sexy" news stories. However, what makes the stories "sexy" is the fact that they are an aberration. An attractive young mother being accused of and tried for killing her adorable two-year-old child is an aberration and has all of the elements to inspire public outrage.
The problems of poverty and starvation, on the other hand, are chronic and as a result, unfortunately, people get numb to that.
I think many people who aren't numb simply feel overwhelmed by the enormity of the problems listed above and feel there is nothing they can do about these things. Others, perhaps, are just suffering from information fatigue. There's so much information available now about EVERYTHING, so much "awareness" of this problem and that one, that people just start tuning it out.
But I bet there are scads of blogs and web sites devoted to starvation, child abuse, you name it. You need only look for them. At the risk of sounding simplistic or even condescending, what you find on the Internet will be determined by what you search for.
Clarity, thanks for the update about the cruise cancellations and the additional feedback about that.
ReplyDeleteAlas, the whistle blower is still up in the air about sharing personal experiences publicly.
Anon, once again, you respond, but do not answer. If you are so concerned about specific issues, I strongly encourage you to take action on those issues, rather than complain that *others* are focusing on things of their choosing.
ReplyDelete"Corrections officer?" Isn't that what petulant little children call adults who punish them for misbehaving? :-)
".. what you find on the Internet will be determined by what you search for...."
ReplyDeleteConnie,
Can we ad to that, that what you find in people who you don't really know, but that you read about on the internet and hear or see in the so called "news" , will be determined by what you are looking for?
Look for perpetrators, villains, wrong doers, con artists, snake oil salesmen, fakes, flakes, crooks, deceivers, frauds, hustlers, and swindlers you will surely find them. Look for things to say "gotcha": about, and you will find them every where that you look.
Ron, once again, when your right you are right. You got me pegged perfectly.
ReplyDelete"It's true that the media glom on to the "sexy" news stories. However, what makes the stories "sexy" is the fact that they are an aberration. An attractive young mother being accused of and tried for killing her adorable two-year-old child is an aberration and has all of the elements to inspire public outrage. "
ReplyDeleteThere are a countless number of "aberrations" that do not grab hold of anybody. There are certain things, a pretty or handsome face, and a hot body, a newness, good timing, that make one story sexier than another.
"Public outrage" is a chronic condition that lies in wait and just leap frogs from one story to the next story to Be outraged about.
*Some* people just have nothing better to do with their lives between sips of wine and puffs on their joints. ""Public accolade " on all these voting talent shows is just the other side of the coin. A part of society has no idea what do with itself or where to put it's energy. We have a planet desperate for distractions. We have people addicted to crime porn, serial killer porn, victim porn, disaster porn, political leader porn, and sexual porn.
Distractions.
Anon, it's true of everybody, including me, that we often find what we look for. However, it is NOT accurate to say that I don't personally know any of the people I write about. To say or imply that I just get my opinions from "the news" or from what others say on the Internet is incorrect, and I think you know that.
ReplyDeleteI know enough from my own personal experiences with the New-Wage culture and its "leaders" for my default opinions to be along the lines of what you see on this blog.
Not surprisingly, I have often been told that I have judged certain people and ideas unfairly. The people who tell me this obviously have different opinions and experiences than I (and in many cases they have financial and/or emotional stakes in defending said people and ideas). But the Internet is a big place and there's room for all of us.
Ron, due to the rash of comments on this thread, it's time-consuming to make one's way through all of them. So you might not have seen Anon's comment above. She wrote that she actually did try to start a blog about critics and the court of public opinion, but thought better of it. See Anonymous Saturday, July 09, 2011 9:44:00 AM
Anon Sunday, July 10, 2011 11:20:00 AM
ReplyDeleteSo consider this blog snark porn. :-)
"However, it is NOT accurate to say that I don't personally know any of the people I write about. To say or imply that I just get my opinions from "the news" or from what others say on the Internet is incorrect, and I think you know that."
ReplyDeleteYou and I have two radically different ideas on what it is to know someone.
Correct me if I am wrong but I suspect you mash up, thoughts you have about others, things you feel and believe about others, your views on abstract groups and your opinions on types of people, and things people have told you with a few personal first hand experiences you may have had all into one ball and call that knowing a person and consider that to be close enough for jazz.
I think this kind of hazy lazy generalizes thinking is unreliable and makes me think of all the "experts" who must have surfaced and contributed to the women who were burned or drowned as witches in Salem.
Anon, I think you are forgetting, or choosing to ignore, that this is an OPINION blog and has never pretended to be an unimpeachable source of hard news. We've gone over this ground before. This is MY blog with MY opinions, which are in fact informed opinions, based on extensive PERSONAL experiences -- which include actually knowing (not just knowing OF) some of the people I write about.
ReplyDeleteYour mileage may vary. It obviously does.
And the Salem witch analogy is just as faulty as the Nazi/Holocaust analogy, which has also been used against me by people who were disgruntled about things I wrote about their idols. Nobody is burning, drowning, gassing, or otherwise killing or hurting the people I write about. In fact, most of the subjects of my blog posts are doing just fine, at least by their own boastful accounts. The ones who are not doing so well, e.g., James Arthur Ray, got themselves into trouble. My fellow critics and I had nothing to do with it.
"....which are in fact informed opinions, based on extensive PERSONAL experiences -- which include actually knowing (not just knowing OF) some of the people I write about...."
ReplyDeleteI myself would not take any actions or make any conclusions or commitments based on the above, as credible and solid as you may feel about your blog.
"And the Salem witch analogy is just as faulty as the Nazi/Holocaust analogy........ Nobody is burning, drowning, gassing, or otherwise killing or hurting the people I write about......."
I was referring more to the behaviour of the confident, self-appointed, all knowing "experts" and people who feel things very strongly and believe things very strongly, and who knew what was what and who led the mob, the court of public opinion this way or that. People who acted on their prejudices to galvanize others or contribute to the poor view against the people they disapproved of.
I 100% was not comparing the impact you may have on others to the specifics of burning or gassing of those anaologys. I was talking about mob behaviour and on line voting on others. If I was a better writer that would have been clearer. Sorry Connie.
"... For now, I take comfort in the belief that our movement—this campaign-for-sanity that you and I and Connie and the Droid and John Curtis and Barbara Ehrenreich and Sally Satel and maybe a half-dozen others pioneered against great cultural odds—had to have played some supporting role in the jury's finding of guilt...."
ReplyDeleteOne of your fellow experts who know what is what and are in position to judge others boasting about your mob power. See the Salem mob thing at work there?
Actually, we critics are a pretty powerless "mob," all things considered. The multi-billion dollar selfish-help/McSpirituality industry is alive and well. If our "mob" of critics played a supporting role in the James Ray jury's decision, I'm guessing it was a very small one indeed. In any case they apparently reached their verdict after careful deliberation, without the influence of the "mob."
ReplyDelete"...If our "mob" of critics played a supporting role in the James Ray jury's decision, I'm guessing it was a very small one indeed..."
ReplyDeleteWho are you to play any role at all? I would LOVE to make your or your other critic's the actual judge or the sole person who sentences and executes the person, I want you guys to follow through on your al knowing opinions and be the ones to pull the trigger and see how you do and how bold and cocky and snarky and sure of yourselves you are!
Just a fantasy of mine :-)
I don't have any fantasies about pulling a trigger on anyone. Expressing a negative opinion about somebody's teachings, behavior, or business practices is not the same as wishing that person were dead.
ReplyDeleteCritics can play a valuable role in helping others make up their own minds about issues.
Pull the trigger, was just me being dramatic, my bad, I don't mean you killing a person, unless you do advocate for death in any of your criticisms, then I do mean that. Mostly i I mean, you be solely responsible for what happens to a person, what they can do and not do, what happens to them, follow your criticisms through to the end. You are not just questioning people in your blog, you are judging and calling people liars frauds cheats and criminals and labelling them all kinds of names from the sidelines. Whatever fate you deem appropriate to a person you are snarking about, i would love to see you be the sole person who gets to bring that to bare on a person and be responsible for the outcome , instead of just whispering ion people's ears from backstage and the sidelines.
ReplyDeleteEvery one knows what our president should be doing and not be doing and how flawed he is. I would REALLY like to see any of these mouthpieces take up the accountability of that office or even be the sole person who chooses a president. Being in the mob and shouting opinions from the bleachers and being accountable are world's apart.
If you critics were to be actually accountable for anything , I would expect a great silence from your corner.
Hey "Anonymous", your comments would have more weight if you identified yourself by using the name you use when you post on other sites.
ReplyDeleteWhy not address the essential points Connie's post was making?
Jerry Hicks' failure to follow his own teachings makes it look like he doesn't believe them himself. That is the reasonable to conclusion to draw from the facts.
Either argue the facts, or if the facts are true, argue why they should be interpreted differently. Or realize that Hicks has just exposed himself as a liar, a coward and a fraud, and that you've been conned.
Just telling people to shut up about it all -- and doing that anonymously -- makes it look ´rather a lot like you have a financial interest in business going along as usual.
So here is my question to you, "Anonymous": do you use Jerry Hicks' teachings in your work?
Hi, Yakaru. You've made some good general points about Anon's tactics, as well as salient specific points about Jerry Hicks. However, Anon's beef seems to be about more than my criticisms of the Hicks scam. She's been here before on numerous threads.
ReplyDeleteI find it hard to tell one anonymous from another. Thanks "Blogger" for making it easier to post anonymously than to use a name.
ReplyDeleteIn any case, I find it extremely poor form and impolite to post anonymously and then complain about critics "going behind peoples backs".
Yakaru
ReplyDelete"Why not address the essential points Connie's post was making?"
RESPONSE: My criticism is the on the existence and nature of blogging and on the public court of opinion, not on the points themselves. I don't think Connie is right or wrong. I don't know anything about the people she is musing about.
"Either argue the facts, or if the facts are true, argue why they should be interpreted differently.'
RESPONSE: No.
"Just telling people to shut up about it all"
RESPONSE: please show me where anyone told anyone to "shut up about it all".
" and doing that anonymously -- makes it look ´rather a lot like"
RESPONSE: Looks that way to who? You? Noted.
"you have a financial interest in business going along as usual."
RESPONSE: I do not. I do not know who the target in this "musing" is. Never heard of them.
"So here is my question to you, "Anonymous": do you use Jerry Hicks' teachings in your work?"
RESPONSE: See above answer.
"Hey "Anonymous", your comments would have more weight if you identified yourself by using the name you use when you post on other sites."
ReplyDeleteRESPONSE: Why is that Mr. "Y-a-k-a-r-u".
Yakaru
ReplyDeleteHow is it in "extremely poor form and impolite to post anonymously and then complain about critics "going behind peoples backs"?
How are you not anonymous?
Where is everyone in the blogs full names and addresses and contact info?
The entire internet acceptably uses an anonymous model with some kind of fake screen name. Is that news to you?
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteIt's confusing if you are posting as "anonymous" multiple times on multiple threads. It's hard to distinguish you from all the other anons who show up and leave negative & judgmental comments about other people being negative & judgmental.
Also, anonymity in this sense has nothing to do with using ones legal name. You can easily identify my comments here, and should we bump into each other on another site, you will know immediately that it's me. I won't know that it's you, though.
Also, if anyone doubted my sincerity or wondered about my motivation for commenting, they can easily google me and see what I have posted elsewhere and check if it adds up. Or they can follow the link on my name and find out more.
If I could do that with you, it might add a bit more weight to what your claims of having no interest in the Hicks. Or, if I found comments by you on other sites which are not neutral about New Age spirituality, then you would be exposed as a liar.
As it is, you just expect me to take your word for it. Puts you in a rather weak position. All I can do is assume you can't back up your claim of neutrality.
Finally, the "court of public opinion" is the only protection that many people have against the special type of evil which Hicks and others peddle. This "court" is run almost entirely voluntarily, and the worst sentence it dishes out is exposure and some jokes.
It seems strange that someone who professes complete indifference to the injustices outlined in the post, should suddenly develop a highly sensitive sense of justice in relation to the "court" itself.
You have a very odd value system.
I have a question for Connie: How long are you going to waste your time and ours trying to defend your blog against this anonymous person? You've got as much chance of coming to any kind of consensus or conclusion as Obama does with the Republicans. Like them, she has absolutely no interest in consensus, much less, resolution. Her objective is clearly to prevent you from discussing the things that are important to you. So far, she owes you a big "thank you," because you've allowed her to succeed quite nicely.
ReplyDeleteYakaru - After reading your comment, I only have one question: Where the hell is the "Like" button? :-)
ReplyDeleteYak, excellent comment re the whole "Anonymous" issue. I've been back and forth with this Anon numerous times about this very issue over many months, and yours is one of the best and most concise summaries. There is in fact a happy medium between complete anonymity and an established onscreen persona. There's only one "Yakaru" on these forums that I know of! :-)
ReplyDeleteFolks such as Salty Droid and to a lesser extent Yours Truly have our respective online nicknames and screen personae -- the latter being a little fake robot and a blue snark, respectively -- but our real names are easily available on our blogs, and in fact I have a link to my business Web site on my blog. (I sometimes joke that this level of transparency may have cost me some prospective clients, but OTOH, it has also served to screen out those who wouldn't be a good match.)
Anon continues to claim that she is a completely disinterested party where LGATs and various individual New-Wage leaders are concerned, but for some reason I have a problem believing that.
And Ron: totally agree about the "Like" button re Yak's comment about Internet anonymity.
Yakaru
ReplyDelete"It's confusing if you are posting as "anonymous" multiple times on multiple threads. It's hard to distinguish you from all the other anons who show up and leave negative & judgmental comments about other people being negative & judgmental."
RESPONSE: oh ok, I understand what you mean now, it is about looking at accumulative postings and having a sense of who is who and who wrote what. I can totally see how it would be easier to iD posters who posted under an identifiable name. But the Blog offers to post under an anonymous name and I will continue to take advantage of the Anon option.
"If I could do that with you, it might add a bit more weight to what your claims of having no interest in the Hicks. Or, if I found comments by you on other sites which are not neutral about New Age spirituality, then you would be exposed as a liar."
RESPONSE: Yes.
"As it is, you just expect me to take your word for it."
RESPONSE: I do not "expect" you to do or not do anything. I do not need you to do or not do anything.
"Puts you in a rather weak position."
RESPONSE: You can label me "weak" and put me in a weak position if you want. I am ok with that.
"All I can do is assume you can't back up your claim of neutrality."
RESPONSE: ok.
"Finally, the "court of public opinion" is the only protection that many people have against...."
RESPONSE: Says who? You? You speak for many people? Really? And the "only"? I don't see it.
"...the special type of evil which Hicks and others peddle. "
RESPONSE: I don't know them from adam but that all sounds like, your own personal prejudice and your opinion man.
"It seems strange that someone who professes complete indifference to the injustices outlined in the post, should suddenly develop a highly sensitive sense of justice in relation to the "court" itself."
RESPONSE: Is that "strange" "seeming" so bad?
"You have a very odd value system."
RESPONSE: Don't we all! :-)
Regarding being able to ID posters.
ReplyDeleteI want to point out that Connie has known my posts 99% of the time. My comments have a certain obtuse prickyness to them that is easy to spot :-)
Also Ron does an excellent job and has never failed to ID me and put me in my place. I am grateful for his bold and direct instructions.
Connie I don't recall ever saying, that I was "completely disinterested party where LGATs and various individual New-Wage leaders are concerned". I do not live under a rock and have been exposed to so called "Self Help", Alan Watts, Gurdjieff, meditation, etc.. Also, I think I have had experiences of what *some* call "the invisible world", those things that cannot be easily seen nor talked about without looking like a kook, unless you are Edward Estlin Cummings. So I do have some interest to your topic.
ReplyDeleteBut what I have said to you was that I do not know the specific people you "muse" (target) about, and what I am commenting on is the "court of public opinion" and the self appointed experts on-line who talk so casually about others and gossip about people with glee and superiority, as if others are weak and flawed but the critics are not.
Thanks Ron!
ReplyDeleteI can only commend Connie for her dedication to supporting free speech on her blog, and patiently responding to this person who is quite obviously dissembling.
Anonymous, your value system is only weird if you are indeed as neutral as you claim. Your values would be, however, perfectly consistent with someone who is unhappy about criticism, but can't find any argument against it.
In other words, I don't believe that you are neutral on this matter (eg., your palpable irritation at my "personal prejudice" about an issue you supposedly don't care about).
Really, you just seem to have a bee in your bonnet and to be just trolling. Looks to me like Ron has seen through your motives.
There was an anonymous quite some months ago who raised similar objections to this site, and finished up slinking off when their motives were questioned. I wonder if that was you.
Looked at your tweet.
ReplyDelete"...She thinks that since we critics think we're so smart we SHOULD have the courage to "pull the trigger".."
You have written that for reaction no doubt and deliberately put it in the context you did to attract allies to your "side yes?
Did you not understand what I wrote when I clarified that analogy? That I would like to see *some* bloggers and people who appoint themselves as experts on a topic simply because they have an opinion about it, and because they have some heart felt strong feeling or thought about other people, and who casually label others, to actually be put in a position to decide what happens to the people they target or the entities they are snarking and see how bold they are and how sure of themselves the bloggers are in deciding what happens to people they are calling so flawed and evil, and inferior to everyone else.
I know that snappy sound bites on twitter conveniently to not allow for such elaboration.
The Jim Jones of the Internet Part One
ReplyDeleteConnie, Rev Ron et all thank you for your posts and your to and fro with Anonymous - I would like to add to this little discussion with a post of my own?
(deep breathe) and here we go...
Dear Anonymous
1, I have read your posts about "the mob mentality", "people being self-elected experts because they have an opinion on something" etc etc. I have also read your comments on "nazi's and salem witch trials" and "pulling the trigger"
Nice wordage but you are wrong. You are so wrong that you are funny.
2,I am an expert on what these Hustledorks are doing.
Why? you make ask.
Well I was taken in by these hustlers and charlatans - I was promised salvation and all i got was destruction.
I have used these people "frauducts" and have been through their year long coaching courses and read their books and bought their tape series and you know what?
It is a total load of rubbish.
3, And before you come back with "well its your own fault you made the decision to part with your money"
Yes I did but then how many college educated professionals fall foul of "cults"???
4, These guys - these self-elected self help guru act and use the same techniques that the great Cults of our and other age.
Unlike the Rev Jim Jones and Jonestown, Solar Temple or Heavens Gate they have not yet caused any deaths (although that will change once the final sentencing is passed on Jame Death Ray)
What they do is milk you for as much money as they can then leave you on the scarp heap.
5, Unlike you i have first hand experience of these guys.
And I am educated to know where and how I feel for their sales techniques.
When I managed to de-program myself from these insidious people I turned my own very expensive education and my own talents as a salesman on myself.
I asked the Q = "How did they get me to believe in their rubbish?
6, The HustleDork's Playbook (or how to use tired and tested Cult techniques to milk your mark)
a, Over a solution to the three ills of the modern world - namely money-relationships-health
b, Create an advertising campaign that promises instant success or results - perfect for the short attention of the 21st century populace.
c, Get people when they are vulnerable by soothing messages mixed in with pseudo-spiritual messages that are lifted from the worlds great world religions - concentrate on the core tenets.
d, Induce "peer pressure" (either in live form or fakeomonials from some professional usally from NYC or some other large city and remember first name and initial only)
You then get to feel – Hey damn! there are others like me as well.
Maybe this guy is talking some sense (that when you take leave of yours)
e, They invite you to an local (online – another webinar or live group) where they will be be emphatic with your your problem – and it if is a live Q*A they will always have an enthusiastic member of the audience who has either used the product and wants to spread the word!!! or the person is a "plant" who have a backstory of how they used the product and it so changed their life they went to work for the company. Hmmm
f, in these sessions they first make you feel really really bad about yourself... making you even more vulnerable – Robbins calls it the Dickens method – close your eyes and now go three years, 5 years etc into the future and imagine what it would be like if you where in the same position – feel the pain, feel the loss etc etc and then
come back to reality – it hasn’t happened yet the scumbag of your choice will say – as my product is going to make sure you will be a SUCKCESS.
You feel so bad that you will not hold onto any liferaft that is offered.
(and before you say that is only works on those with an already disturbed mentality - well check out the Milgram experiment conducted in Yale and the the Standford Prison experiment)
The Jim Jones of the Internet Part 2
ReplyDelete5, They then make you feel special – they isolate you from your friends and family – by saying that “you have to keep this to yourself as your closest and dearest will question you about spending so much money”
“They mean well my dear mark but they are so caught up in mediocrity (or whatever phrase they use to describe hard working honest people) that they will question your judgement”
“But my dear Mark we are your friends we are your brothers and sisters in arms and we will always be with you ( any latent problems with spouse, family friends now comes to the fore)”
and if you are still hesitant they will say
“The more people that question or ridicule you the more you know you are in the right place – (them they will trott out a famous dead figure from the past – Edision and his light bulb, the Wright Brothers as examples of people who faced opposition – but look at what they did”
g, You start to feel “loved, accepted” all those harebrained schemes you have had come to the fore – “Damn these people are just life me – they want to be the best etc”
So you sign on the dotted line – maybe a tape course, or maybe a online course.
h, You start interacting more and more with "likeminded people" other suckers who have been duped and you spend less time with your real friends and reality.
i, This is then reinforced by the The Mastermind Group concept– the most cult like of all methods.
What Proctor does it get each of his course participants into a Mastermind Group where you have your peers and your all say the same affirmations (there is only one God and his name is – you get the idea) and then you keep to schedule etc etc…
and before you know it you are spreading the good word of the Law of Attraction to all your friends and family – most just think – this is just a phase but some who can see through all the razzle dazzle think – oh hell he/she has gone off at the deep end.
7, A quantitative and qualitative analysis of how these movement work
They are very good at what they do. They initially use "lists" of people who their network of hustledorks own and then mass market the hell out of the list.
They know that at least 1-2 percent of that list is having a problem in either money, relationships or health - although the dorks feel that money can cure everything so they concentrate on them.
It is just pure direct marketing as used by corps for years.
Then when they get a bite - they have a procedure of follow ups calls etc.. each interaction from the mark is step further along the funnel until eventually they use the cult techniques mentioned above.
8, BOOM you are now ready to be milked and you will good about doing it.
In Conclusion my dear Anonymous you are defending the indefensible - to use one of your own analogies - these Nazi's will have their Nuremberg eventually - I see Connie, Rev Ron, Yakuru, Theo-girl et all as those concerned citizens who are raising the issue so that it can be noticed by those in power
and be in no doubt my dear Anonymous the time will come when these scammers are held to account and when that happens I would not like to be on the side of defense for then you will see the real face of the Mob and you will not like it.
Thanks for your time all
Anonymous have yourself a hustledork free day.
best
Citizen Noir
I've been spending so much time on Salty's blog lately (as well as spending time actually...gasp...working) that I've quite neglected this discussion. But I just wanted to pop in and say thanks to everyone for the latest comments, and to welcome Citizen Noir to the party.
ReplyDeleteCN, you make great points about the cult-like aspects of hustledork culture, and I appreciate your sharing them here.
OMT to everyone: Due to Blogger's limitations, I think that if the comments go beyond the 200 mark (and they're getting close now), they'll go to another screen. So don't think that just because they don't show up on the initial screen I haven't published them.
Thank you again to everyone for your participation. I will have a follow-up on Abrascam soon.