David Schirmer, Aussie star of The Secret, is back home in Australia after what he describes as "a short but intensive visit to Orlando and Los Angeles." I had known he was in Orlando for a meeting with marketing greats Dan Kennedy and Bill Glazer, but to my knowledge he hadn’t previously said anything about L.A. Some are wondering what he was doing on the Left Coast. My best guess is that perhaps he visited Disney World in Orlando, and was inspired to see the original Disneyland in the L.A. area (specifically, in Anaheim). Perhaps he wanted to pick up some astounding wealth and success tips from Mickey or Goofy, and cop a feel off of Snow White while he was at it. (Okay, that was a low blow even for me. My apologies to everyone.) But as I said, the Disney Theory is just a guess. I could be wrong, and probably am.What is clear is that these days, Schirmer is still sharing wealth and success tips and stock trading advice via various web sites and blogs. For example, he teaches "the mind habits and money habits to achieve success" on his "7 Steps To Unlimited Wealth" site ("The time proven secrets that your teachers and parents didn't know or never taught you ... but should have!"). And any day now we should see the newest edition of his Indices Report on his Stock Market Index Report blog, which, incidentally, still proudly bears the Schirmer/Secret logo. Schirmer’s sig file for most of his promotional emails these days lists him as "David Schirmer, Private Trader/Financial Coach/The 'Aussie' Secret Teacher."
Notwithstanding the mounds of criticism Schirmer has faced, he still has his fans and defenders. For example, there is one member of The Gaia Community, an online gathering of the conspicuously enlightened. The tag line on the home page of The Gaia Community says it all: "Do you ever feel that everyone around you is asleep? Are you tired of waking up alone?" Hmmm….kind of sounds like a dating site, come to think of it. Anyway, there is one Gaia man who seems to be a true David Schirmer fan: Keith Leon of L.A., who describes himself as a Relationship Master (he and his lovely wife Maura have been featured on The Huffington Post). Here's what he says about his work:
My wife and I have a goal to become the inspirational couple of the century…so everything we do, every product we make, every business decision must be in alignment with this purpose, or we don't do it.
In the past…when people would ask us what we do for a living…we'd go into a big long detailed explination [sic] that would tend to take to [sic] long…and put people to sleep. If you asked us now, here's what we'd tell you.
Have you ever known anyone who stayed in an un-fulfilling relationship because they didn't want to be alone?
If I told you that my wife and I could take anyone and show then [sic] how to get exactly what they want in all of their relationships…do you know anyone who might benefit from that?
So where’s the Schirmer connection? Keep your shirt on; I’m coming to that. Keith Leon is listed on the Gaia site as co-author of a book called, Who Do You Think You Are? Discover The Purpose Of Your Life, which has a foreword by Jack "Chicken Soup" Canfield. As much as anything else, the book seems to be a tribute to the "teachers" in The Secret:
WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? Discover The Purpose Of Your Life! will take you on the personal life journeys of inspirational, self growth leaders Jack Canfield, John Assaraf, Dr. Joe Vitale, Dr. John Gray, Hale Dwoskin, David Schirmer, Bob Proctor as well as many other successful entrepreneurs, entertainers, educators and healers.
In all, 63 New-Wage luminaries are featured in the book. I couldn’t find a listing on Amazon at this time, but it is apparently for sale directly from Keith and Maura. And you can also get Who Do You Think You Are? as an e-book.
On his Gaia Community profile, Keith Leon lists his heroes, and the top three are: "My friend and mentor Jack Canfield, David Schirmer, and Rev. Dr. Michael Beckwith.
My correspondent who brought this to my attention thought that perhaps Schirmer might have been in LA to visit Keith Leon. I still prefer the Disney Theory, but I admit that the Leon Connection is possible too. Anyway, my correspondent expressed the opinion that perhaps Keith might be well advised to do better research on the folks he interviews, writes about, and chooses as his personal heroes.
Today I received a rare comment – rare for this blog, anyway – from yet another Schirmer supporter. Actually this was a comment to one of my November 2007 posts. But I’m bringing it up here, since the November post is now in the archives. The remark came from Adrian Sherlock, an actor and independent film maker in Australia, and creator of super hero Damon Dark. Adrian, under the name straker2, has also come out in support of Schirmer on YouTube. Here's what he wrote to me:
My opinion of the Secret is that it is a very useful tool which I've applied in my own life to positive effect. My view of David Schirmer is that he seems to be a genuine sort of guy, if he's made any mistakes in the past, I get the impression he's learnt from them and is unlikely to repeat them.
David is, I believe the owner of the Aust branch of Bob Proctor's Life Success business. Mr. Proctor's teachings helped me out a helluva lot when I was a young man with a lot of problems. I've seen David Schirmer live and he teaches the material Bob Proctor teaches, so it's well worth the money to hear it. I know a lot of people are suspicious, cynical or distrustful of these type of teachers, and that may be understandable enough, but something you reject can't help you. And for me, that's the bottom line. I went to YouTube to find an audience for my film making, but I'm happy to support David Schirmer, I believe he's a decent guy.
While I am always happy to publish comments from "the other side," I had to point out to Adrian that even Bob Proctor (aka "Scientist Bob" on this blog) seems to have dissociated himself from David Schirmer. And while it is often true that, as Adrian wrote, "something you reject can’t help you," it’s also true that people are hurt all the time by blindly accepting the words and ideas of some selfish-help and New-Wage gurus. In fact, rejecting the ideas of some of these people is, in some cases, the most helpful thing a person can do for herself or himself.
As for Adrian Sherlock's impassioned defenses of David Schirmer on YouTube: it may seem a pretty big stretch to portray Schirmer as a hero who is being pummeled by the envious and the mediocre, but then again, Adrian's genre of choice is science fiction.
PS ~ Speaking of books about one's life purpose, Oprah has described herself as "over the moon excited" about her latest book club pick, A New Earth, Awakening To Your Life's Purpose, by Eckhart Tolle. She said that by sharing this book, which she describes as her "boldest choice yet," she is helping fulfill her life's mission: "to lead people to their higher selves." Uh-huh, the way she did with last year's endorsement of The Secret. Go get 'em, Queen O. And if her man Obama gets into office, perhaps we can expect New-Wage culture to be elevated to even higher levels of regard. Dave Barry for President is looking better all the time...
Isn't Schirmer life one big fantasy? It's frightful how deluded he appears to be. Whoever Adrian Sherlock is he's probably being manipulated by Schirmer too so pity help the guy. Schirmers arrogance will do him in so I don't think his victims have too much to worry about. It will be interesting to see how 2008 plays out.
ReplyDeleteGive Schirmer some ears and he looks for all the world like Mickey, he acts like him too because thats what he does in real like - play act.
ReplyDeleteOh yes, Herr Tolle. Funny little pixie isn't he?
ReplyDeleteOn his you tube video he has big bunch of flowers behind him, which I think is the true measure of enlightenment. In fact, I'm going to do some quick research into the bouquet/enlightenment thing. Correlation or causation? Back in 10 mins.
(By the way, the sacred letters of blogging read- 'dehla' which is obviously a hybrid of Deutchland and dahlia. I sink ziss is a sign that Eckypoo is going to be top flower powerer)
Preliminary results.
ReplyDeleteEckhart Tolle- Big bucks big buncha blooms, nice display.
Tony Parsons- Shrubby, small, sparse blooms.
Papaji- Decent display.
Andrew Cohen- Overly trimmed, small, possibly plastic.
Krishnamurti- Modest potted plant, ordinary but perky.
J.Z.Knight- Two bunches, one big, one small.
Kalki and Amma- Carpets of flowers, garlands, multiple bunches, possibly hides smell of farting.
Whilst showing a correlation between character of teacher and flower display, further research may be needed to demonstrate definite cause and effect.
This was Straker2 comment on Youtube "David, I've met Bob Proctor and been to his seminars and he changed my life from sorrow to joy, poverty to abundance. Any friend of Bob's must be a man of integrity. I support you 100%. I know you by the companies you keep! :) ACA are pitiful!"
ReplyDeleteDoes Straker2 know that Bob Proctor has disassociated himself from Schirmer or is he being hoodwinked by Schirmer because Schirmer wants/needs something from him?
I too believe that some of Bob Proctors stuff is helpful but I sure as hell also know that David Schirmer ain't who or what he says he is. Doesn't surprise me to see Schirmer involved with someone on the dark side of the moon. Pity Straker2 looks quite nice too and its not as if he hasn't had enough warnings.
Corey, I hope for his sake that Adrian Sherlock wakes up and smells the coffee, as the old saying goes. On the other hand, since he's trying to make his mark as an actor and indie film producer, it's possible that he doesn't have too much of a financial stake in Schirmer's enterprises. He does seem to have invested some emotion, however, judging from his comments on YouTube.
ReplyDeleteSeb, for some reason when I read your comment, the song "When You Wish Upon A Star" started up in my head... and now it won't stop... help! :-)
ReplyDeleteHHH, excellent research as usual regarding the significance of blossoms and gurus. Mafu / Penny Torres, known on my Whirled as Swami Blonde, likes to surround herself by gaudy blossoms too. They go so well with her dreadful fake foreign accent.
ReplyDeleteCurly, I'm no fan of Bob Proctor myself, but since Adrian (in his comment on my blog) cited Schirmer's partnership with Proctor, I did mention to him that Proctor has apparently dissociated himself from Schirmer.
ReplyDeleteI do not know if Proctor has made any public statements about this or if he has given any official reason for the split, but I have heard about it from more than one source, so I'm thinking there's something to it.
"My wife and I have a goal to become the inspirational couple of the century" Keith Leon
ReplyDeleteI hear the divorce papers being filed now:) Talk about setting yourself up for failure.
I just read that Schirmer and Proctor had gone their separate ways so I'm sure we'll find out the truth soon enough. I don't think Schirmer has done the right thing and he deserves to be disassociated with until his issues are resolved and it seems he has a few. Bob can't afford his corner to be tainted by anyone unknown even if he isn't squeaky clean himself. If crap reaches the media there is bound to be an effort made by someone to resolve things before it got that bad. I just don't think they are living the secret and that is not good for anyone who really is genuine about caring for others. Guess there is always a bad apple in the bunch. Schirmer comes across as very arrogant. Thanks for the blog, it's interesting.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Mary Anne, Keith and his wife do seem to be putting a pretty heavy burden on themselves. OTOH, if they can make enough money at the MystiCouple shtick, that may be extra incentive to stay together.
ReplyDeleteCurly, thanks for your kind words about the blog. In regard to your comment that Schirmer is not living "The Secret," though, I think that he and a lot of the other "The Secret" teachers *are* living the DVD's implicit message of narcissism.
ReplyDeleteDavid Schirmer "WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?"
ReplyDeleteWhat an arrogant rude and unfulfilled man he is.
Au contraire, Shirl. According to Schirmer, he's living a more abundant life than ever. I'm getting ready to post about it.
ReplyDeleteHi all. Adrian Sherlock (straker2) here. Thanks for your concerns. It's true that I don't have any real financial stakes invested in David Schirmer's business enterprises and I am sure Bob Proctor would want to distance his name from anyone who is, for whatever reason, attracting a lot of public criticism. That's commonsense. I can only state that I met David, he was very nice to me and did me no harm at all. And I appreciate The Secret (which he was part of) as a great DVD which I got a lot of positive stuff from. And that's it, basically. If David Schirmer really has done something wrong, as many attest, then I'm sure the law of the land can deal with it. However, I didn't get the impression he was in any danger of that happening. I could be wrong, I guess, time will tell. All the best to you all,
ReplyDeleteAdrian.
Thank you for your additional insights, Adrian, and I wish you the best of luck with your film making career -- no matter how the Schirmer drama plays out.
ReplyDeleteOh, no! It's divorce time in Fantasyland! So, who's getting custody of devoted puppydog Ade?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.fedcourt.gov.au/ecourt/ecourt_esearch_slide.html
Search for case NSD 173 2008
In shorthand, Bob Proctor's company, Lifesuccess Productions, is suing the Schirmers and all their eight dozen companies in Australian Federal Court for "mislead. or deceptive conduct".
How long before the defense "ANYBODY can file a lawsuit! The existence of a lawsuit doesn't prove ANYTHING!" gets put into play? I'm in the office pool for 12 hours!
Interesting news, Anon, and thanks. Everyone else: I haven't had time to check all of this out yet because I've been preoccupied with the move and with work. Plus I'm running on low-speed Internet now on a primitive laptop. But I thought I'd publish this anyway and y'all can follow the links.
ReplyDeleteAdrian sounds like he might have been caught by the chameleon good and proper. Its haunting how the neighbour of mass murderers always say that they never suspected a thing, quiet guy, polite, worked hard, charming, seemed rather warm and caring, etc. etc. That's when the goosebumps really poke up. By all accounts these people become very good at what they do. No doubt we'll see the REAL David Schirmer soon enough and not the one HE wants everyone to think he is. I caught him lying in one of his comments in the last few days so it doesn't take much investigating to discover what he's up to. When you lie once, you have to make up another to cover for that one and so it goes on until your whole life becomes one big lie. Sadly, some people become so deluded that they actually start to believe their lies.
ReplyDeleteGood points, Jason. Time will tell... and from all indications it looks like it will be "telling" some more very soon.
ReplyDeleteSearching the whole Australian Federal Court site for the name “Schirmer” on esearch.fedcourt.gov.au brings up some interesting things. Let’s play “connect the dots”...
ReplyDeleteDot One: Schirmer, promoting a new “ezine” that apparently hasn’t published since its inaugural edition in January 2008, decides to exploit the sympathy card by mentioning a hitherto private family issue, the death of his brother, Jaime, at the age of 36. Of course we mustn’t fault him for that, for it is a time-honored tradition for self help gurus to mine their spouses, children and other people unfortunate enough to be related to them for amusing, humiliating and/or illustrative purposes. But given all the other crap going on in his life, opening up his family for further scrutiny does not seem to be the wisest choice.
http://www.wealthbychoice.com/ezine/Ezine20080105.html#message
(you quote David’s message extensively, which is good since it looks like the WBC website is soon to be no more:
http://cosmicconnie.blogspot.com/2008/01/shameless-schirmer-leaps-into-new-year.html
Dot Two: Here’s an obituary of a “Jaime Lyndon Schirmer”, who died last year in Queensland, Australia, at the age of 36, and has (among several other siblings) a brother named David:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/AUS-NEWSPAPER-EXTRACTS/2007-05/1179545619
“SCHIRMER, Jaime Lyndon, Late of Cambooya, sadly passed away on Sunday morning on the 29th April, 2007, aged 36 years. Fifth son of Glen and Christina, brother of Ian, Grant, David, Wayne, Elizabeth, and Aaron, and their respective partners, uncle to his many nephews and nieces. Well loved by all He will be sadly missed….”
Dot Three: One of the judgments in the Australian Federal Court’s database (search under “Judgments”) involves the “involuntary treatment order” of a Jaime Lyndon Schirmer for being “highly psychotic and aggressive”. If this is indeed the same Jaime Lyndon Schirmer who died I’d hazard a guess that he was not “well loved by all” the police and mental health authorities he was suing:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/qld/QSC/2005/353.html?query=Schirmer
Anon wrote, "...it is a time-honored tradition for self help gurus to mine their spouses, children and other people unfortunate enough to be related to them for amusing, humiliating and/or illustrative purposes."
ReplyDeleteI couldn't have put it better myself. And it does look as if Schirmer is trying to play the sympathy card by mentioning his brother's death, but that still pales next to the martyr card he's been playing for the past year or so.
OMT ~ lest I sound as if I am utterly lacking in compassion for David Schirmer and his family:
ReplyDeleteI have no doubt that the death of his brother was devastating to the family , and if the brother did have mental and emotional problems there was almost certainly untold suffering in the years preceding his death. I have a feeling that there are many sad stories in the Schirmer family, and I am not trying to make light of them. But it also seems that many if not most of David Schirmer's current problems are a result of choices he has made, and if he continues to arrogantly gloss over them he will only make things worse for himself and his family.
Schirmer states this on one of his websites which I've kept for interest because I believe the guy is a compulsive liar:
ReplyDelete"Well, I didn't know the stock market even existed 22 years ago; but once I knew I had to invest in it I found someone that was really successful in trading and investing in shares and I learned it from them. I am now one of the most successful stock market investors in the world.
A word of warning: DO NOT allow other people to invest your money for you! The person who will take the greatest care with your money is you."
I have highlighted a couple of VERY interesting statements made by the man himself and this raises a few questions:
1) WHERE IS SCHIRMERS PROOF THAT HE IS ONE OF THE BEST TRADERS IN THE WORLD? HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN IT?
2) IF THAT IS WHAT SCHIRMER BELIEVES THEN WHY WAS HE TAKING OTHER PEOPLES MONEY OFF THEM?
I think we might find out the answer to all of this soon and I doubt it will come from Schirmer.
Hey Straker2 Whats your position on Schirmer now that he's been charged in the Federal Court with misleading and deceptive conduct AGAINST Bob Proctor? Do you think you should do a bit more research before speaking out and just beleiving what Schirmer has to say. Isnt' that why all those people got caught in the first place, they stupidly believed the guy.
ReplyDeleteThank you to my most recent Anon contributors for your comments. I would also like to acknowledge the receipt of another anonymous comment I did not publish because it contained some comments about alleged sexual dalliances and might possibly be construed as libelous. The information in that comment is consistent with info I have heard from various other sources -- like many of these situations, it seems to be one of those things that "everybody knows" -- but I have to maintain some standards around here. I hope you understand, Anon. Rest assured, however, that I am keeping my ears open regarding this matter.
ReplyDeletePS: If my comment above looks familiar, it's because I also wrote it in the "comments" section of another post, "Tuesday Trifles." My reason for doing this is that the Anon contributor whom I address sent his/her comment to both posts.
ReplyDeleteBe warned everyone, David Schirmers new company name is
ReplyDeletePERISSOS INTERNATIONAL PTY LTD
If Keith Leon has aligned himself with David Schirmer then that tells the world what sort of a person he is by showing total ignorance for what Schirmer has done to many people in Australia. Their relationship IS definitely a journey into fantasyland.
ReplyDeleteI look forward to the next installment.
In answer to "anonymous" asking about Schirmer's situation, now, I confess I haven't been keeping up with it. But it may help if I clarify a point here, despite anon's views that I'm a loyal puppy, in fact I regard these guys as teachers, and what I take from them in knowledge and inspiration, I am not worshipping them, I just don't see cynicism as clever.
ReplyDeleteAs for Mr.Schirmer, what exactly is the beef anyway? That he has money? The Schirmer Group, last I heard was comprised of 20 companies. Now I don't have to be a maths expert to work out that if each of those 20 companies were only paying him a lousy hundred bucks a week, (and that'd be a pretty poor performace for any company, to earn so little for the owner of the business) then that's $2000 a week. So, I suspect he can afford to make the repayments on his big house etc.
If it's your concern that he's scamming people, I've been to his seminars, and frankly, no one complained about the content and no one felt overly stung by the price of admission, which was not that high, as seminar prices go.And there were no obligations.
So, what's all the fuss about anyway? My friends rib be about my relentless optimism, at times, but when I come back and say "I got the job" or "I got the house" I am also able to say "See? This positive thinking crap pays off in the end."
Ade.
Adrian, thank you for your comments. However, if you think that the complaints against David Schirmer are that he has money -- or if you think that everyone who speaks out against Schirmer is just being cynical to be clever -- well, as you said yourself, you obviously haven't been keeping up with things regarding Schirmer.
ReplyDeleteBelieve me, the complaints about Schirmer are NOT about his seminars. And the beef about repayment is not whether or not he can pay his mortgage. It is about why he continues to spend money on himself while not paying back hundreds of thousands of dollars he allegedly owes his investors and partners.
Straker 2 you obviously know very little about companies. Schirmer might have many companies but how many businesses, aha you see there is a big difference. He will and does take every chance to boast about owning a dozen companies. Boohoo, did you realise that any fool can go and register some companies and claim to have 20 odd of them in fact I'm guessing that he has probably done just that so to the average joe it sounds very impressive and guess what, you even fell for it.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I have read Schirmer has only ever had two businesses that is apart from his attempted foray into manufacturing which apparently proved a dismal failure for pretty scary reasons and as Schirmer always puts it, it is always the other fellas fault...... and those dismal failures are mounting, just do your homework. Now if you do do a little homework you will notice that Schirmer has shuffled things around to make it appear like he has this and that and he owns this and that - or so he thinks (No doubt by now he is a major curiosity to the authorities in Australia who I’d reckon are probably tailing his every squeak). Anyone who deludedly takes on investors and then shuns them from any profit or even their own money is asking for really serious trouble, God knows what else he’s attempted with it. Oh and I’ve done some homework on that little matter and know the previous owners of that business so no smartassing ok. There was also a mention on ACA about some of his trading students who he apparently sold his course on the promise of great returns to which also he is accused of never having been able to prove he is capable of obtaining so wow! really scary stuff right. Or are you still believing? Now that to me is a major problem and sets alarm bells ringing immediately so he doesn’t a hope in hell of catching me in any of his grandiose plans, promises or cutesy products.
I reckon you probably did go to one of Schirmers seminars and he was publicly on best behaviour (yewk!). I also reckon you have had yours eyes glazed over with all the amazing love and admiration and all things positive and free which he has successfully been able to get you to believe. Anyone who stupidly just follows and falls into the trap of being mesmerised by charm and grandiose claims is living in a fools paradise and from my observations, Schirmer is the man at it (double yewk!).
So you are the eternal optimist but hey, you're making your millions and winning big time right?
Then I have to ask why do you need to go to that guys seminars if that is really the case? There are plenty more people out there who really do know what they are talking about, have the credibility to back it up(i.e. have not been charged in the Federal Court with misleading and deceptive conduct by their mentor and apparent exfriend) and education (really done degrees and doctorates in psychology, medicine, finance and the like) and who runs rings around that guy making him look a pathetic little mummy. I know your come back because you’ve ven been told what to say to the critics but before you do, really think about it. No I mean REALLY think about it.
I have really thought about it. FYI, I have two Univesity Degrees, a Post Grad Diploma and a Masters, I've passed units in history, science, listerature, journalism, screen writing, education and much more, so I'm no chump and I know that the stuff DS was teaching was the same material Proctor and others teach. It's legit stuff. Why did I need to go? Same reason I did all the Uni study, because if you're not feeding your mind, not learning and getting useful ideas, you can't develop in life. And I enjoy it. I happen to think it does me a lot of good and I enjoy it a lot. I watched the A Current Affair "Expose". At one point someone accuses Schirmer of running away to hide in New Zealand where no one knows him. Funny how he was back in Melb after that story in broad daylight and no cops arrived to slap the cuffs on him.
ReplyDeleteAnother of their comments is that he's "being investigated". Again, that doesn't mean he's been found guilty or charged with anything.
There must've been a hundred people there that day. I never heard a complaint from one of them.
Complaints and accusations are meaningless. We live in a world where people are innocent until proven guilty in a Court of Law. And that's a fact.
Does that mean DS hasn't made any mistakes in his career? Like a baby learning to walk, I would expect anyone who aims big in business to screw up, stumble and fall. But FYI, DS now has a requirement that everyone who attends his meetings signs a disclaimer, accepting that the seminar is not to taken as anything other than educational. I'd say he's learned from his mistakes (whatever they may have been) and hired people who know how to cover him against any further problems. And if the half dozen people on TV had any leg to stand on legally, they'd be suing, not whining on TV.
So, frankly, like it or not, I suspect he's not about to go under for any errors he made while starting out.
He may well have made some foolish offers at the start, but stock market investment is never 100% certain, there's always a risk and legally, those people accepted that risk, if their claims are true.
If anyone has a complaint against him which really can be pressed home in a Court of Law, then no doubt we'll hear about it. I totally agree with people paying for their crimes, but he's yet to be charged with any. And he is making a lot of money in the meantime and his seminars are well worth attending IMO. There were about 100 satisfied customers that day.
Thank you for your insights, Adrian; as I've said before, I am always glad to hear from the other side. One point, though: while complaints and accusations made outside a court of law may be "meaningless" from a legal standpoint, it pays to remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Also, neither you nor I know what other legal actions may be pending that have not yet been made public. But I suspect there's lots more to this story than ACA has told so far.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you have gotten some benefits from your association with David Schirmer, and I'm sure others have too. But then there are others...
However, I do appreciate you taking the time to state your case.
Adrian Adrian Adrian, you still haven’t got it but to give you a break you speak of your experience attending one seminar and that seems to have been ok. Is it really "listerature" you have majored in? Yes the material Schirmer is teaching is the same stuff but I think the problem is with the person whose teaching it not the material itself.
ReplyDeleteOne fact you have overlooked is the absolute and undeniable fact that David and Lorna Schirmer have both been charged in the Federal Court only a month or so ago for misleading and deceptive conduct and that was by exbuddy Bob Proctor. In anyones terms that is not a healthy thing to be charged for when you are spruiking to the public about being so incredibly knowlegable about all things personal develop and as well touting a Christian belief. Well that is what he wants you to think and believe anyway because lets face it , that sells more products of course. I doubt very much that Bob Proctor would have taken the matter that far if it were not important that he do that because after all it would affect him as well. I suspect he had had about enough of the crap behind the scenes and didn’t want to be associated with it any more. I’m guessing but I can’t imagine why else.
What I would like to see is all the evidence that ACA really does have but I guess they are holding that to spit it out in dribs and drabs as the situation suits them. Thats what the media do best. I also really wonder at how many of those people attending when you did actually paid to be there because I have also heard from other "attendees" of Schirmers courses that his workshops are almost always padded with people attending free to make it appear like there are a lot of paying people there. Something to think about perhaps?
I, like you, want to see justice served if that is what is needed in this case because I believe it is very wrong for someone to be in a position that he is in and have done what he is accused of doing. Lets face it people just don’t take the time or energy to complain if there is nothing to complain about. I personally don't like what I see, I don't like the anger and frustration that he has caused people and I don't like his attitude when he is questioned because I believe it smacks of guilt. No-one is faultless however he is in the business of manipulating peoples minds by using the material so I think you would agree that the public have every reason to question what he is doing and why. If the sole purpose is monetary gain, which others have pointed out that he has admitted on national tv that his goal is to get 2 billion dollars then he's going to have to make merry with the few followers he's got to have a hope of reaching that goal any time soon. Just remember that words mean absolutely nothing but his actions are what has spoken the loudest here. David Schirmers actions seem far less honest than they should be and I think the public have a right to question that. My personal opinion is that he is an opportunist who has been blinded by greed even if his intentions were not that way initially. He appears to have a past of massive lack, limitation and fear and if he really understood what he was talking about then he would know that it is he that must give to receive. By the reports it appears that everyone else has done all of the giving and that causes a massive discrepancy in what he is saying and doing. Something else to ponder maybe?
My personal opinion is that if a person wants to get up on stage and teach people how to use their minds and live an honest, happy and fulfilled life then they should be doing that themselves. That is my least expectation and I suspect many other peoples also. The fact that he has made promises to people and not followed through tells the world that he is not an honest or trustworthy person and it will remain that way until he rectifies the situation himself. I also saw that there were some very questionable transactions that took place in one of his companies that ACA exposed. If they have exposed that then there is surely much more to come out yet. I would never go to any seminar of a person who has been exposed as much as he has simply because my gut tells me that if that much has made it out then there is a hell of a lot more to it than that. I'm going to sit back and just see what happens from here because there are plenty of great mentors out there and I don't consider this guy one at all.
It's important to remember that any human being who attempts to rise to a level of success above that of simply being an employee of someone else's company is going to face a long, complex and at times difficult life journey. How many people never make a mistake in their career or get fined for some infraction, etc? When the pursuit is so much bigger, the potholes will be bigger too. But the case you cite doesn't make the man a con artist or a bad person. He has a team of people, but anything which goes wrong, he has to take the responsibilty for it, like any CEO.
ReplyDeleteThe accusations that he conned people seem based on the complaints of a small number of the thousands of people he's had at his seminars over a particular incident. If they had a legal leg to stand on, they'd be using it.
What really concerns me is that this constant focus on whatever errors of judgement this guy may have made seems to be done in a spirit of crusading to protect people.
But I see it as tragic that people are being put off the teachings which are associated with The Secret and Bob Proctor, which are valuable and can help a lot of people.
You are protecting people? From what? Bear in mind, Schirmer's status as a celeb in the field of motivational speaking and coaching means he can legitimately make money just by getting on a stage, he has no need to con anyone.
I've had comments elsewhere about my defense of Schirmer, but whereas I've tried to be totally straight and honest, some of the remarks have been rude, insulting and belittling.
I have achieved a lot in my life academically,professionally and personally and I owe much of that to positive thoughts and input.
Frankly, people have a choice and people are not stupid. They don't need protection, they need encouragement.
If someone invested some money in the Stock Exchange and lost it, then they need to try again. Persistence and learning from mistakes is all part of the process of success.
If the people on ACA are to be believed, then anyone who loses money should be able to get their stock broker on TV and say "This guy recommended I buy these stocks! I want my money back! He's a crook! Jail him!" What rubbish! The stock market's not a sure thing. You want the big returns, you take the bigger risks. They had a choice. But if that makes DS a monster, well, why only six people out of thousands of people? Why no complaints from the rest?
I'm being totally straight with you. I have not got any vested interest in the guy, I've met him once only. But he did me a good turn and I enjoyed his seminar. It was not over-priced, he was very frank and candid about things which had gone wrong in his life, everyone there seemed happy.
Con man? Proof required, innocent until proven guilty. And The Secret? One of the most encouraging things ever made, it's helped a huge amount of people. Fantasy land? Not at all. Without imagination, your house would be a pile of bricks. Someone needed to imagine your house and draw it first.
Adrian.
Hi again, Adrian. I hope you don't think that by snarking about David Schirmer I am in any way belittling your own accomplishments. I'm sorry you've faced abuse and rudeness elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteBelieve it or not, I think that the self-help industry, and some self-help authors/speakers, have something of value to offer. I'm also very aware of the value of positive thinking, imagination and the like.
The problem as I see it is that there is sometimes a fine line between positive thinking and willful refusal to see what is truly bad and harmful. And there's a *big* difference between imagination and deceit.
You write:
"The accusations that he conned people seem based on the complaints of a small number of the thousands of people he's had at his seminars over a particular incident. If they had a legal leg to stand on, they'd be using it."
Adrian, I believe there are more people involved than just a "small number." And as I noted in a previous comment, neither you nor I know what sort of legal actions are going on in the background that have not been publicized. But rumor is that big things are brewing.
Speaking of "having a legal leg to stand on"... if ACA's exposés are lies or even gross exaggerations, how come Schirmer hasn't sued them?
Also, I don't think ACA ever said or implied that losing someone's money in the stock market is a criminal offense. What Schirmer is alleged to have done goes far beyond that.
You also wrote:
"What really concerns me is that this constant focus on whatever errors of judgement this guy may have made seems to be done in a spirit of crusading to protect people."
A little later you added:
"Frankly, people have a choice and people are not stupid. They don't need protection, they need encouragement."
This is one issue on which I partially agree with you. The desire to protect others, however well-meaning this desire might be, sometimes comes across as condescending. Sometimes it *is* condescending.
I agree that people should have a choice. And yes, many times they do need encouragement more than protection. At the same time, they sometimes need protection as well. I don't mean this in the sense that we protect and shelter children from unpleasant realities -- again, competent adults should have the right to make their own choices -- but sometimes people need protection from clever con artists.
To me, the best protection is the free exchange of information.
Regarding your opinion that people are not stupid, well, on the one hand, as I've tried to express above, I agree with you. On the other hand, I can't help remembering the famous Tommy Lee Jones quote from "Men In Black." It's the scene where Will Smith is asking why the government has not been forthcoming with the citizenry about the presence of aliens on Earth. After all, Will says, people are smart.
To which Jones replies: "A *person* is smart — *people* are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it."
Now, as for your fear that all of this criticism of Schirmer will turn people away from the teachings of Bob Proctor and "The Secret"... well, first of all, Proctor himself has officially and even legally dissociated himself from Schirmer. Second, Proctor isn't exactly my idea of the be-all and end-all of worldly wisdom either. And you already know what I think about "The Secret."
As for Schirmer being frank about the mistakes and "errors in judgment" that he has made...hmmm. I think there are a few folks who would beg to differ on that one. I'll let them speak up here if they wish.
And as for Schirmer being a celeb...in his dreams, LOL. He's getting more press here than he does anywhere else. True, he's been getting as much mileage as possible out of having been in "The Secret," but let's face it: I'm one of a handful of people in the entire United States who even knows who the heck he is.
Finally, Adrian, I will take you at face value when you say you have no vested interest in Schirmer's enterprises. But you do seem to have an emotional stake in the matter, and in continuing to defend him. Either you sincerely believe he's a stand-up guy, or you just aren't looking at all of the evidence.
Hi Connie, thanks for what I feel is a very balanced and fair reply. I'm not sure why you'd have any concerns about Bob Proctor, certainly I think the world of Bob for what he's done for me. As for Mr.Schirmer, while I despair of the media's penchant for painting people as villains and victims, instead of just humans who all make errors of judgement at times, if he should end up in jail one day, I'll happily admit I was wrong. Time will tell, I guess.
ReplyDeleteThanks again for your very balanced and fair reply.
Kindest regards,
Adrian.
Adrian, I have a feeling you're going to be all right no matter how the Schirmer saga turns out. You have a lot going for you.
ReplyDeleteI guess this whole thing is just another lesson in, "Take what you need and leave the rest." You can get value from the teachings, even if the teachers themselves are less than sterling examples of the things that they teach.
I actually don't think jail is appropriate for David Schirmer or for anyone who hasn't committed any violent crimes. How can someone earn enough money to make restitution while behind bars? (Murder, assault and most sex crimes, on the other hand, are "prison-worthy" offenses, IMO.)
I do think that if Schirmer is guilty of the financial fraud of which he's been accused, he should simply be forced to pay back as much of what he owes as he possibly can, even if it means he has to sell his house and all of his assets to do so.
Lacking that, a few years of community service might be appropriate. I do know that if the prison system in Australia is anything like that in the US, it is a breeding ground for more crime rather than for rehabilitation.
I believe that if Schirmer is guilty of the things he has been accused of, he still has a chance to redeem himself. And I truly hope, for the sake of the people who claim to have been hurt by him, that he does. But I don't think he can do it in prison.